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[Music]

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welcome back to liminal frames i'm your

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host nathan i'm here with my co-host exo

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academian

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greetings to all of you who are

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listening to the show uh wherever you

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listen to it we are grateful to have you

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along

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the ride with us on this journey

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exo

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how's it going

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it's going well here we are at episode

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eight already it's uh

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we're following these together right

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amazing

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yeah i'm looking forward to getting into

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it again and uh

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hoping to bring some nuance to uh some

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tricky tricky topics

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absolutely uh nuance is something that

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uh we're pretty comfortable with i think

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uh and tonight not only we're gonna hit

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the nuance but i think we're gonna even

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challenge ourselves a little bit on some

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of uh

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you know that perspective

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and

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explore

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not only thinking about things from

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different sort of points of view but

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also is the merits of thinking of things

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in a in kind of a more black and white

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perspective

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and with with that uh that kind of tease

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up what we're gonna get into this

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evening and that's

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uh looking at the phenomenon and high

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strangeness

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from

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the sort of

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vantage point of a binary categorization

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and so what do we mean by that we mean

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that

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uh oftentimes when you hear about

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sort of examples of phenomenal

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experience you hear people

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explain them or or reference them

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in these very binary categories this was

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a bad experience this was a good

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experience uh this was something akin to

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an angel or something like a demon

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you know specific examples i can think

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of you know thinking about abductions

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you know we tend to think of abductions

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as a violation of our agency and

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our privacy so they're bad uh we hear

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stories of um you know kind of

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miraculous healings

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uh from disease or some other impairment

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and those are good

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uh we hear stories of different entities

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you know people who encounter

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uh

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sort of beings of light

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and uh a lot of vantage or reference

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points in

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western thought beings of light are

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equated with angels

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uh we hear stories of shadow beings um

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or uh

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you know kind of diminutive shady gray

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kinds of beings

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those are equated with demons

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uh

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and then there are a lot of other sort

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of different ways that people kind of

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look at this and sort of break

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down experiences into these chunks these

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easy sort of groupings

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and so what we want to do tonight is

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really challenge that uh explore you

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know not only why we might

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do that why we have kind of an instinct

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to kind of group experience into these

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buckets but also

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you know kind of walk through

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ways in which we may

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kind of better examine our own thought

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process you know kind of how we come to

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those conclusions and how we might find

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a better kind of more broader

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perspective

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on uh experiences that we may have had

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or experiences that we hear about so exo

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when you when you think about this topic

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you know this kind of binary

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categorization

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i feel like there's a long history of

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this you know kind of in

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uh you know in the literature and

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certainly within pockets and communities

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and uh who've been studying this for

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some time

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um does it you know does it frustrate

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you that we're kind of still

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you know going quickly to these

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categories how do you look at this

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breakdown uh when you look over the past

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yeah good question um

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definitely for me i

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i resist uh the tendency to say

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look look at this on the face of it it's

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obviously bad or vice versa look at this

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on the face of it it's obviously good

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i think that

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we have people who have experiences

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um that some are good some are bad uh

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some begin

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being perceived as bad right we should

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we really need to make that distinction

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between

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the perception the interpretation of the

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event versus the event itself and the

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elements of the event and as much as as

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much as possible what i always try to do

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is is actually analyze the the elements

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themselves before you get to

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interpretation because

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that comes in so much i think that'll

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come up tonight time and time again

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the distinction between an

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interpretation of an event versus the

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the elements of the event itself

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um even when we reach back to

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you know religious history and fairy

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lore and all these different kinds of

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traditions

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same thing i think it's important to

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actually try to as much as possible end

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up with clean data you know the actual

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elements themselves

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um

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you know parsed out from the

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interpretation of it and then actually

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see how much overlap there is

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and then you know one of the things

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that's fascinating is even people who uh

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you know begin with a negative

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interpretation or perception of an event

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later to come to see it quite

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differently

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some people think that that's uh you

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know

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almost like an example of stockholm

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syndrome where people are actually

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aligning with their captors because it

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gives them some sort of false sense of

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agency

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but i don't think it's quite that simple

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either so i resist uh

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these really binary um and concretized

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kind of perceptions

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or interpretations

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and i think too we have to be very

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careful to not

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uh you know bring in our human

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conceptions like

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uh you know human rights individual

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rights

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uh even as it may be defined in the

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american constitution or something and

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assume that

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these aliens should have read those you

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know those pamphlets and know better

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we are dealing with different

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intelligences

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some of them seem to have

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not necessarily a hive mentality but

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less sense of

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emphasis on individualization

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you know an individuation and so they

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may literally be unaware of how it

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impacts us that may be one of the

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elements you can pull out of this is

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this overarching sense that because they

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are wired differently which we would

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assume right we wouldn't assume they

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think like human beings experience

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reality like human beings

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their experience of reality might be so

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different that they don't doesn't occur

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to them what it's doing to us

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which again that sheds some interesting

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light on the whole question of are they

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really these highly sophisticated

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morally superior

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you know

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above us advanced in every way shape and

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form or is there more nuance to that

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even because that that's part of it too

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is people tend to say either they're

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dark and demonic or their love and light

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beings who

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have perfect knowledge and sit next to

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the creator you know

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i resist all of that and i think we can

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get into it and i think as we tease out

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individual elements of the ufo

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phenomenon and the contact literature we

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can try and shed some light on that and

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some nuance

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definitely well you know one thing that

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i've noticed about

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the individuals that tend to decide

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heavily on one

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perspective over the other is that

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there's

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uh

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in being able to take that position you

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know if you if you kind of beat that

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that drum it's it's all good man uh

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everything's fine and you know just

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trust in the beings uh like that's

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persuasively powerful and it's

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persuasively powerful on the other side

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oh you know you can't trust them they're

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messing with us

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there's no good that's gonna come out of

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it you know these are very convenient uh

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neatly packaged

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uh takes on what's going on and i think

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you know what frustrates me sometimes

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because this is just the way that i'm

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wired i know this is the way that you're

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wired being a person that tries to look

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at it from a kind of a broader more

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blended uh perspective

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you know it almost feels like that voice

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is seldom heard in the conversation and

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you know i want to think about at least

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the ways in which

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there's almost like a political dynamic

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to uh to this uh component this binary

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thinking that there's there's a force

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of uh

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of will applied to you know sort of

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coming at this and presenting this you

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know very with almost like a bully

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pulpit you know like it is this

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ignore everything else

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don't think about it in any complex way

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it's it's this and it's not that

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that's definitely a component of this

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and a tendency that we have i think as

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human beings you know to gravitate to

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those easy answers

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excellent point and i i think that we

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you know part of something we uh really

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really encourage on this show is

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is trying to cultivate self-awareness

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and try to what that means in this case

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is to try and become cognizant

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of the factors within yourself that may

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make you lean one way rather than

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another because when two people look at

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the same data and come to different

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conclusions sometimes you know polar

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opposite conclusions

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the only you know variable that hasn't

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been taken into consideration is

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yourself right

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and i think

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we feel empowered

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when we have hard answers right so

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whether that's someone who's convinced

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they're all dark and demonic and

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deceptive and others who think it's all

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love and light and they're here to

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deliver us and give us free energy and

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and all that um

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that the what that does for an

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individual it makes you feel

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empowered that you you know the answer

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and i think we need to resist that and

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and whenever

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i've see some people even sometimes you

287
00:10:20,630 --> 00:10:18,079
know when i when i do a podcast for me

288
00:10:22,389 --> 00:10:20,640
when i do a poc podcast

289
00:10:24,150 --> 00:10:22,399
i get fascinated with all the different

290
00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:24,160
possibilities you know and i i'm happy

291
00:10:27,269 --> 00:10:25,760
to sort of like lay it out on the table

292
00:10:28,710 --> 00:10:27,279
and just

293
00:10:30,790 --> 00:10:28,720
just look at it you know just think

294
00:10:33,110 --> 00:10:30,800
about it ponder it try to see what

295
00:10:34,790 --> 00:10:33,120
patterns might emerge but i'm okay with

296
00:10:36,870 --> 00:10:34,800
not knowing um

297
00:10:39,509 --> 00:10:36,880
i think it's partly some of my buddhist

298
00:10:41,590 --> 00:10:39,519
training and just meditation and

299
00:10:44,230 --> 00:10:41,600
developing this sense of

300
00:10:45,910 --> 00:10:44,240
a witness where you feel separated from

301
00:10:47,910 --> 00:10:45,920
your you know executive ego kind of

302
00:10:49,910 --> 00:10:47,920
thing you're not aligned or identified

303
00:10:52,230 --> 00:10:49,920
completely with your executive ego

304
00:10:53,750 --> 00:10:52,240
and so you're able to see you actually

305
00:10:55,269 --> 00:10:53,760
can learn to create enough separation

306
00:10:57,350 --> 00:10:55,279
that you begin to see some of your own

307
00:10:59,269 --> 00:10:57,360
tendencies towards wanting things and

308
00:11:01,670 --> 00:10:59,279
how that shapes what you see

309
00:11:02,790 --> 00:11:01,680
um but yeah some people give me the

310
00:11:05,110 --> 00:11:02,800
reaction that they actually get

311
00:11:06,790 --> 00:11:05,120
frustrated like i came to your show to

312
00:11:09,430 --> 00:11:06,800
get answers and you're not giving me

313
00:11:11,190 --> 00:11:09,440
hard answers you know like uh and i'm

314
00:11:13,030 --> 00:11:11,200
i'm like sorry that's

315
00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:13,040
i don't really see my job as doing that

316
00:11:16,870 --> 00:11:14,800
and i don't think that actually is

317
00:11:18,069 --> 00:11:16,880
necessarily how we even grow and learn

318
00:11:20,069 --> 00:11:18,079
you know like you

319
00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:20,079
you grow and learn when you're actually

320
00:11:24,389 --> 00:11:21,760
in the midst of things and things aren't

321
00:11:26,310 --> 00:11:24,399
clear and you have to wrestle with it um

322
00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:26,320
i think that's inevitable in this in

323
00:11:30,230 --> 00:11:28,880
this topic

324
00:11:31,509 --> 00:11:30,240
yeah well that's really frustrating to

325
00:11:36,389 --> 00:11:31,519
hear that you don't have the answers

326
00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:37,590
spoiler

327
00:11:43,190 --> 00:11:40,720
um that's frustrating no but uh you know

328
00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:43,200
i completely agree there's um

329
00:11:47,110 --> 00:11:45,040
i also want to make sure we touch on

330
00:11:49,190 --> 00:11:47,120
this aspect you know every which way it

331
00:11:50,949 --> 00:11:49,200
kind of bubbles up in the conversation

332
00:11:52,150 --> 00:11:50,959
but there you know there really is an

333
00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:52,160
ethical

334
00:11:56,470 --> 00:11:53,920
kind of component here when we talk

335
00:11:57,990 --> 00:11:56,480
about good and bad or good and evil

336
00:12:00,150 --> 00:11:58,000
you know we really are kind of dancing

337
00:12:01,430 --> 00:12:00,160
around to some degree you know human

338
00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:01,440
ethics and

339
00:12:06,389 --> 00:12:03,680
you know what is right and what is wrong

340
00:12:09,030 --> 00:12:06,399
uh how those things were evaluated uh

341
00:12:11,670 --> 00:12:09,040
and and of course anybody that studied

342
00:12:13,670 --> 00:12:11,680
you know ethics and uh morality over the

343
00:12:16,069 --> 00:12:13,680
last couple of hundred years through

344
00:12:18,069 --> 00:12:16,079
modernity and post-modernity and and the

345
00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:18,079
holocaust and you know everything that

346
00:12:22,550 --> 00:12:20,880
kind of downstream of that like we we

347
00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:22,560
know that it's

348
00:12:29,430 --> 00:12:26,560
it's it's dangerous to sort of um

349
00:12:31,750 --> 00:12:29,440
you know excuse away uh everything that

350
00:12:33,910 --> 00:12:31,760
may happen and kind of say well you know

351
00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:33,920
from this perspective it's totally okay

352
00:12:36,790 --> 00:12:35,680
you know that this happened and from

353
00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:36,800
this you know

354
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:39,200
they're they're i really struggle with

355
00:12:43,430 --> 00:12:41,120
that and others may not you know i

356
00:12:46,230 --> 00:12:43,440
struggle with you know kind of

357
00:12:47,430 --> 00:12:46,240
feeling a need to be able to say x is

358
00:12:49,509 --> 00:12:47,440
wrong

359
00:12:52,310 --> 00:12:49,519
uh and feel pretty strongly or

360
00:12:54,389 --> 00:12:52,320
confidently about that

361
00:12:56,389 --> 00:12:54,399
even even while also recognizing that

362
00:12:58,710 --> 00:12:56,399
good may come out of it you know that

363
00:13:01,829 --> 00:12:58,720
while i might definitively be able to

364
00:13:04,389 --> 00:13:01,839
say the holocaust was wrong and evil

365
00:13:07,750 --> 00:13:04,399
undoubtedly good has come out of out of

366
00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:07,760
that moment in history uh as a response

367
00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:10,240
to that you know terrible evil and and

368
00:13:14,389 --> 00:13:12,959
suffering and so that is very much a

369
00:13:16,310 --> 00:13:14,399
part of this you know as you said

370
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:16,320
earlier people who had an initial

371
00:13:19,030 --> 00:13:17,440
reaction

372
00:13:20,790 --> 00:13:19,040
uh that might have been very negative

373
00:13:22,710 --> 00:13:20,800
with the phenomenon through time may

374
00:13:24,949 --> 00:13:22,720
have you know kind of shaped that into a

375
00:13:26,790 --> 00:13:24,959
positive experience

376
00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:26,800
but that really points to

377
00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:29,680
uh our ability you know to sort of

378
00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:32,880
reshape our our own uh our own way of

379
00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:35,360
thinking our own reality our own our

380
00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:38,399
stance in sort of dynamic relationship

381
00:13:42,629 --> 00:13:40,480
to every experience

382
00:13:43,750 --> 00:13:42,639
and uh there's something uniquely

383
00:13:46,230 --> 00:13:43,760
powerful

384
00:13:49,829 --> 00:13:46,240
about our ability to do this and maybe

385
00:13:52,870 --> 00:13:49,839
it's um you know maybe that ability is

386
00:13:55,269 --> 00:13:52,880
uh kind of a quality of a conscious

387
00:13:57,030 --> 00:13:55,279
entity you know that we we can reflect

388
00:13:58,470 --> 00:13:57,040
and we can grow we can we can have

389
00:14:01,189 --> 00:13:58,480
different perspective

390
00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:01,199
over time and you know what is it about

391
00:14:05,670 --> 00:14:03,120
that quality that we might even be able

392
00:14:07,030 --> 00:14:05,680
to map onto the entire thing

393
00:14:08,230 --> 00:14:07,040
you know so

394
00:14:10,629 --> 00:14:08,240
you know because

395
00:14:12,150 --> 00:14:10,639
value judgments like good and bad you

396
00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:12,160
know they often are

397
00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:15,040
a lot muddier and and uh even even polar

398
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:16,800
opposite when you view them from a

399
00:14:20,230 --> 00:14:18,880
different vantage point so we have the

400
00:14:22,629 --> 00:14:20,240
human vantage point we have the

401
00:14:24,069 --> 00:14:22,639
individual human advantage point

402
00:14:26,150 --> 00:14:24,079
we have uh

403
00:14:28,470 --> 00:14:26,160
other entity vantage points we have

404
00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:28,480
consciousness at large you know so there

405
00:14:34,069 --> 00:14:30,240
are all kinds of different ways to look

406
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:34,079
at experience and to and to value them

407
00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:36,959
on a scale so i think we need to be able

408
00:14:41,269 --> 00:14:39,760
to kind of go through those motions

409
00:14:43,110 --> 00:14:41,279
but i also want to make sure just to be

410
00:14:45,189 --> 00:14:43,120
very clear it's okay

411
00:14:46,629 --> 00:14:45,199
if someone says to you i had a bad

412
00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:46,639
experience

413
00:14:51,110 --> 00:14:49,360
uh and and you can value that in that

414
00:14:52,389 --> 00:14:51,120
and that person you can say i hear you

415
00:14:55,269 --> 00:14:52,399
and i believe you

416
00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:55,279
you know that it was bad for you um

417
00:14:59,110 --> 00:14:56,880
and and the same thing for someone that

418
00:15:00,790 --> 00:14:59,120
says you know i really had a positive

419
00:15:02,550 --> 00:15:00,800
life-changing powerfully great

420
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:02,560
experience with this

421
00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:04,800
wonderful you know i want to meet them

422
00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:07,120
where they are i want to also listen to

423
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:09,680
what they say evaluate the elements of

424
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:11,120
that experience

425
00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:13,600
and kind of engage in a relationship

426
00:15:18,470 --> 00:15:15,920
with them in a conversation that helps

427
00:15:20,949 --> 00:15:18,480
me better understand what was going on

428
00:15:22,870 --> 00:15:20,959
from my own lived experience not what

429
00:15:24,870 --> 00:15:22,880
they're telling me but how i incorporate

430
00:15:27,430 --> 00:15:24,880
that in my own life

431
00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:27,440
yeah i agree and i think we can both

432
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:30,000
honor and um

433
00:15:35,590 --> 00:15:32,880
respect individual experience

434
00:15:37,189 --> 00:15:35,600
uh without you know reducing it to

435
00:15:39,030 --> 00:15:37,199
well you're just you know at step three

436
00:15:40,629 --> 00:15:39,040
of the you know the ten step program and

437
00:15:43,269 --> 00:15:40,639
once you get to step nine you'll feel so

438
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:43,279
much better you know or or vice versa i

439
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:45,040
mean that's not really helpful

440
00:15:47,829 --> 00:15:46,560
um

441
00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:47,839
and i think

442
00:15:51,749 --> 00:15:49,600
it's also important that people don't

443
00:15:53,430 --> 00:15:51,759
sort of bully other people into thinking

444
00:15:54,710 --> 00:15:53,440
listen you're just deceiving yourself

445
00:15:56,069 --> 00:15:54,720
you know either

446
00:15:57,670 --> 00:15:56,079
uh you know they're all good or they're

447
00:15:59,749 --> 00:15:57,680
all bad you know

448
00:16:01,110 --> 00:15:59,759
but for me i'm not i'm wired that's when

449
00:16:03,509 --> 00:16:01,120
i think you are too

450
00:16:05,110 --> 00:16:03,519
uh to step back sort of take the 30 000

451
00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:05,120
foot view and look at

452
00:16:09,829 --> 00:16:07,440
what happens across the board like what

453
00:16:11,829 --> 00:16:09,839
does the overall data tell us and when

454
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:11,839
you add in the factor like time and the

455
00:16:14,629 --> 00:16:13,199
ability to

456
00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:14,639
you know

457
00:16:20,470 --> 00:16:18,320
sometimes it does change and i

458
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:20,480
understand some people think well that

459
00:16:24,069 --> 00:16:22,240
that again may be just a stockholm

460
00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:24,079
syndrome that just may be

461
00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:26,399
people wrestling to find any way they

462
00:16:28,470 --> 00:16:27,360
can

463
00:16:30,389 --> 00:16:28,480
you know

464
00:16:33,030 --> 00:16:30,399
salvage some sort of sense of agency you

465
00:16:34,629 --> 00:16:33,040
know and by making them okay after all

466
00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:34,639
the good guys

467
00:16:38,389 --> 00:16:36,160
these others then they're able to do

468
00:16:40,150 --> 00:16:38,399
that because otherwise you might feel

469
00:16:41,749 --> 00:16:40,160
um completely

470
00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:41,759
at their whim for the rest of your life

471
00:16:44,470 --> 00:16:43,120
like you never know where they're gonna

472
00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:44,480
show up and and what they're gonna do

473
00:16:49,110 --> 00:16:46,800
and i understand that thinking you know

474
00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:49,120
but i'm i'm not willing to just

475
00:16:51,509 --> 00:16:50,720
surrender to that and write a blank

476
00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:51,519
check

477
00:16:55,829 --> 00:16:53,519
i also think that

478
00:16:58,310 --> 00:16:55,839
there are legitimately many many people

479
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:58,320
who do come to see these as either

480
00:17:02,790 --> 00:17:00,160
overarchingly positive or at least

481
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:02,800
neutral you know when we look at the

482
00:17:06,870 --> 00:17:04,799
the dr edgar mitchell free foundation

483
00:17:09,669 --> 00:17:06,880
data that seems to be

484
00:17:11,189 --> 00:17:09,679
what emerged from there you know and um

485
00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:11,199
there's some legitimate questions that

486
00:17:16,789 --> 00:17:14,720
i've heard you know arise around

487
00:17:19,750 --> 00:17:16,799
was there maybe some skewing of the data

488
00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:19,760
and i think we should be aware of that

489
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:21,600
you know when people are self-reporting

490
00:17:25,429 --> 00:17:23,600
which was basically how that that worked

491
00:17:26,789 --> 00:17:25,439
with the surveying

492
00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:26,799
perhaps the people who had negative

493
00:17:30,310 --> 00:17:28,720
experiences are less likely to come

494
00:17:32,230 --> 00:17:30,320
forward right because it is traumatic

495
00:17:33,990 --> 00:17:32,240
and they just don't want to relive it so

496
00:17:37,909 --> 00:17:34,000
we have to be open to the fact that we

497
00:17:39,909 --> 00:17:37,919
may not have you know an exhaustive

498
00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:39,919
body of data there might be aspects that

499
00:17:44,710 --> 00:17:42,400
are missing because of various factors

500
00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:44,720
but with what we do have we have to do

501
00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:46,400
our best to look for overarching

502
00:17:50,150 --> 00:17:48,480
patterns and it certainly seems to be

503
00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:50,160
the case that once you get past some of

504
00:17:53,669 --> 00:17:52,480
the again we can break down and we will

505
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:53,679
break down

506
00:17:58,310 --> 00:17:55,840
some of the individual elements but from

507
00:18:01,590 --> 00:17:58,320
the the broad view here um you know

508
00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:01,600
people do seem to uh once they get past

509
00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:03,600
the ontological shock aspect right

510
00:18:06,549 --> 00:18:05,280
that's so key we've mentioned this many

511
00:18:08,870 --> 00:18:06,559
times

512
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:08,880
and it's not just about something

513
00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:11,120
scary-looking insectoid that shows up in

514
00:18:14,870 --> 00:18:12,640
your bedroom

515
00:18:16,789 --> 00:18:14,880
but the implications for reality itself

516
00:18:18,549 --> 00:18:16,799
like if that can happen what else can

517
00:18:20,310 --> 00:18:18,559
happen you know like it blows apart your

518
00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:20,320
entire reality it's not just about oh

519
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:22,400
these guys need to get mapped onto the

520
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:24,000
animal kingdom right it's not that

521
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:25,760
simple it's the way they show up what

522
00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:27,760
happens the altered state of

523
00:18:32,070 --> 00:18:29,520
consciousness the alternate realm you

524
00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:32,080
seem to dwell in when this is going on

525
00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:34,240
it really opens up a pandora's box

526
00:18:39,029 --> 00:18:37,200
regarding what this means for reality

527
00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:39,039
what might happen in the future and and

528
00:18:42,789 --> 00:18:40,640
once people

529
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:42,799
settle into those um

530
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:45,200
that larger understanding get past that

531
00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:47,039
initial ontological shock there is for

532
00:18:51,029 --> 00:18:49,200
many people a shift

533
00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:51,039
but you know absolutely there are still

534
00:18:55,830 --> 00:18:53,440
still some people who even after years

535
00:18:58,070 --> 00:18:55,840
decades and plenty of you know

536
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:58,080
perspective and time to think back on it

537
00:19:03,270 --> 00:19:00,240
still see it as negative so we do have

538
00:19:07,190 --> 00:19:05,510
well i think about uh

539
00:19:09,669 --> 00:19:07,200
you know we've talked about these things

540
00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:09,679
quite a bit but the

541
00:19:15,270 --> 00:19:11,840
you know they're kind of two overarching

542
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:15,280
frameworks by which we kind of approach

543
00:19:19,510 --> 00:19:17,679
experience uh you know phenomenal

544
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:19,520
experience in particular

545
00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:21,360
you know we have people that

546
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:22,400
are

547
00:19:26,310 --> 00:19:24,720
situated in in a religious

548
00:19:28,310 --> 00:19:26,320
sort of context

549
00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:28,320
uh you know deeply steeped in a

550
00:19:31,029 --> 00:19:30,000
religious tradition

551
00:19:34,150 --> 00:19:31,039
um

552
00:19:36,470 --> 00:19:34,160
from a western religious tradition

553
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:36,480
you know the binary kind of breakdown

554
00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:37,440
there

555
00:19:41,669 --> 00:19:40,559
is that anything that any kind of being

556
00:19:44,710 --> 00:19:41,679
which would

557
00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:44,720
evoke a positive experience

558
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:46,640
you know we typically lump that into

559
00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:48,640
something that isn't angelic

560
00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:51,200
you know that is on the side of humanity

561
00:19:57,590 --> 00:19:53,600
on on the side of god

562
00:19:59,669 --> 00:19:57,600
you know an emissary of the divine

563
00:20:02,630 --> 00:19:59,679
and

564
00:20:04,710 --> 00:20:02,640
therefore they are uh benevolent or you

565
00:20:07,669 --> 00:20:04,720
know we think more positively about

566
00:20:09,909 --> 00:20:07,679
those entities um you know particularly

567
00:20:10,950 --> 00:20:09,919
we're also kind of dealing with the

568
00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:10,960
um

569
00:20:14,470 --> 00:20:12,640
centuries of

570
00:20:17,270 --> 00:20:14,480
you know kind of angelic lit literature

571
00:20:18,789 --> 00:20:17,280
baggage that comes into play here too uh

572
00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:18,799
you know with the

573
00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:21,520
the uh the choirs of angels and the the

574
00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:23,440
you know the white wings and the white

575
00:20:27,669 --> 00:20:24,640
robes and

576
00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:27,679
everything feels very uh you know sort

577
00:20:31,270 --> 00:20:29,440
of love and light

578
00:20:33,029 --> 00:20:31,280
uh and that's very much a part of that

579
00:20:35,029 --> 00:20:33,039
tradition and then on the other side of

580
00:20:37,350 --> 00:20:35,039
it you have the

581
00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:37,360
the the negative experiences beings that

582
00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:38,080
are

583
00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:39,840
uh harming you

584
00:20:44,149 --> 00:20:41,520
or kidnapping you

585
00:20:47,350 --> 00:20:44,159
or tricking you the trickster is a a

586
00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:47,360
huge component in the in literature

587
00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:50,080
and we equate those beings with demons

588
00:20:57,110 --> 00:20:53,360
now they are subverting the uh sort of

589
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:57,120
desires and plans of of the divine they

590
00:21:03,190 --> 00:20:59,760
are not on humanity's side they are

591
00:21:04,630 --> 00:21:03,200
trying to dupe us uh into making some

592
00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:04,640
kind of bargain

593
00:21:08,950 --> 00:21:06,720
with the anti-god you know with the

594
00:21:10,310 --> 00:21:08,960
devil with satan

595
00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:10,320
and uh

596
00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:12,240
you know we'll go along with that we'll

597
00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:13,840
trade for something you know maybe we'll

598
00:21:19,110 --> 00:21:17,039
get some powers from them and uh it may

599
00:21:21,590 --> 00:21:19,120
seem like we got a good deal but we've

600
00:21:23,270 --> 00:21:21,600
you know we we've given up our souls uh

601
00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:23,280
you know so that the soul component is a

602
00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:26,320
part of this story as well so there's

603
00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:28,720
there's kind of that religious framework

604
00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:31,120
that a lot of people bring to this

605
00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:33,520
uh to the the stories in the literature

606
00:21:37,590 --> 00:21:35,280
and i find i don't know if you find this

607
00:21:39,990 --> 00:21:37,600
but i i'm actually kind of surprised the

608
00:21:43,510 --> 00:21:40,000
amount of people

609
00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:43,520
who bring that religious perspective to

610
00:21:47,669 --> 00:21:45,520
the ufo phenomenon is that something

611
00:21:49,510 --> 00:21:47,679
that has you know kind of surprised you

612
00:21:50,870 --> 00:21:49,520
as well or you know the longer you've

613
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:50,880
been is that just kind of something that

614
00:21:54,390 --> 00:21:52,080
you think people

615
00:21:56,710 --> 00:21:54,400
like is religion like a gateway drug to

616
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:56,720
uh to ufology like how do they land

617
00:21:58,950 --> 00:21:57,520
there

618
00:22:01,029 --> 00:21:58,960
right i mean

619
00:22:01,830 --> 00:22:01,039
so many things to say on this topic so i

620
00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:01,840
think

621
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:03,440
what we're partly pointing at here is

622
00:22:07,750 --> 00:22:05,760
sort of some unconscious

623
00:22:08,789 --> 00:22:07,760
presuppositions that people bring right

624
00:22:10,310 --> 00:22:08,799
so

625
00:22:11,990 --> 00:22:10,320
you know you probably heard this analogy

626
00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:12,000
of if you're if you're thinking about

627
00:22:16,630 --> 00:22:14,080
buying like a red toyota

628
00:22:18,310 --> 00:22:16,640
suddenly you see them everywhere right

629
00:22:20,070 --> 00:22:18,320
in the same way i think if you are

630
00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:20,080
raised in a certain

631
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:22,080
ontological framework about the the

632
00:22:24,630 --> 00:22:23,280
nature of reality and how it's

633
00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:24,640
structured what kind of beings are

634
00:22:31,510 --> 00:22:27,200
involved then it's

635
00:22:32,950 --> 00:22:31,520
very easy to slip into um

636
00:22:35,110 --> 00:22:32,960
seeing them everywhere you know and so

637
00:22:37,029 --> 00:22:35,120
when you when you really have it drummed

638
00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:37,039
into you from a young age

639
00:22:42,549 --> 00:22:39,520
that the only beings outside of you know

640
00:22:44,230 --> 00:22:42,559
human beings and animals are

641
00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:44,240
demons and angels

642
00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:47,200
then when you see things or you hear

643
00:22:52,549 --> 00:22:50,720
stories about people having experiences

644
00:22:54,549 --> 00:22:52,559
and like you said there's even some sort

645
00:22:55,990 --> 00:22:54,559
of folklore that's built up

646
00:22:58,630 --> 00:22:56,000
around

647
00:23:01,669 --> 00:22:58,640
angels being these kind of nice fluffy

648
00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:01,679
white with wings smiling

649
00:23:06,310 --> 00:23:04,480
aryan looking you know kind of humanoid

650
00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:06,320
beings when actually

651
00:23:10,070 --> 00:23:08,000
in in the in the biblical literature

652
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:10,080
it's like don't be afraid

653
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:12,480
don't be afraid like constantly and you

654
00:23:15,669 --> 00:23:13,840
have to ask yourself if they look so

655
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:15,679
white and fluffy and full of wings and

656
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:18,080
smiling at you with their blonde hair

657
00:23:22,870 --> 00:23:21,039
why are people told to not be afraid

658
00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:22,880
and the truth is because the depiction

659
00:23:25,270 --> 00:23:24,400
is probably more like something that's

660
00:23:28,070 --> 00:23:25,280
really

661
00:23:30,789 --> 00:23:28,080
awe-inspiring and kind of horrifying at

662
00:23:32,470 --> 00:23:30,799
first because of again ontological shock

663
00:23:33,590 --> 00:23:32,480
well that's that's what you could draw

664
00:23:35,110 --> 00:23:33,600
from that is actually people are

665
00:23:36,950 --> 00:23:35,120
experiencing ontological shock and

666
00:23:39,270 --> 00:23:36,960
therefore they're being told don't be

667
00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:39,280
afraid even with so-called angelic

668
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:41,440
visitations right

669
00:23:43,750 --> 00:23:42,400
so

670
00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:43,760
there you have a situation where

671
00:23:46,789 --> 00:23:45,520
regardless of what the actual biblical

672
00:23:49,510 --> 00:23:46,799
texts say

673
00:23:51,909 --> 00:23:49,520
over time this mythology gets built up

674
00:23:53,750 --> 00:23:51,919
around what angels must look like

675
00:23:55,510 --> 00:23:53,760
that are not actually

676
00:23:57,830 --> 00:23:55,520
accurate depictions of what we actually

677
00:24:00,390 --> 00:23:57,840
see in the bible or even something like

678
00:24:02,230 --> 00:24:00,400
you know the historical figure of jesus

679
00:24:05,029 --> 00:24:02,240
you know a middle eastern man looks

680
00:24:07,909 --> 00:24:05,039
nothing like the sort of nordic smiling

681
00:24:10,870 --> 00:24:07,919
blond-haired aryan jesus we see you know

682
00:24:12,149 --> 00:24:10,880
in in north america so often in the

683
00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:12,159
depictions

684
00:24:16,950 --> 00:24:14,799
so we really have to

685
00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:16,960
like try to break out all of that parse

686
00:24:20,710 --> 00:24:18,880
out all of that and so many people are

687
00:24:22,390 --> 00:24:20,720
not doing that so many people like we

688
00:24:23,909 --> 00:24:22,400
were sort of taught in academic circles

689
00:24:25,190 --> 00:24:23,919
to do that right to be aware of all

690
00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:25,200
those elements

691
00:24:28,070 --> 00:24:26,400
um

692
00:24:29,430 --> 00:24:28,080
you know

693
00:24:30,830 --> 00:24:29,440
for me for my biblical studies

694
00:24:34,149 --> 00:24:30,840
background we

695
00:24:36,789 --> 00:24:34,159
absolutely were taught to

696
00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:36,799
look at a scriptural passage

697
00:24:43,269 --> 00:24:37,679
and

698
00:24:45,110 --> 00:24:43,279
hear it read it see it as the original

699
00:24:46,549 --> 00:24:45,120
hearers would have heard it because they

700
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:46,559
were the audience

701
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:48,240
and we have this kind of anachronistic

702
00:24:51,750 --> 00:24:49,919
tendency to say

703
00:24:55,669 --> 00:24:51,760
wow you know what is that saying to me

704
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:55,679
in 2022 uh you know and uh when really

705
00:24:59,909 --> 00:24:57,360
you have to think this was written like

706
00:25:01,750 --> 00:24:59,919
thousands of years ago to a very

707
00:25:04,390 --> 00:25:01,760
different culture

708
00:25:06,789 --> 00:25:04,400
not only do we have like the

709
00:25:08,950 --> 00:25:06,799
distance of language translation several

710
00:25:11,830 --> 00:25:08,960
times over sometimes

711
00:25:14,470 --> 00:25:11,840
but on top of that the cultural

712
00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:14,480
distance is much more pronounced

713
00:25:18,950 --> 00:25:16,480
to the point where as an example i like

714
00:25:21,590 --> 00:25:18,960
to use you know in modern

715
00:25:22,789 --> 00:25:21,600
sort of slang we say you know break a

716
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:22,799
leg

717
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:24,799
we mean it kind of like good luck right

718
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:26,880
but you imagine people 2 000 years from

719
00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:29,120
now coming across this dialogue between

720
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:30,960
you know nathan and exo

721
00:25:35,510 --> 00:25:32,960
and and at one point nathan says to exo

722
00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:35,520
break a leg and so they think ah and in

723
00:25:40,630 --> 00:25:37,440
the past they used to you know actually

724
00:25:42,390 --> 00:25:40,640
snap limbs as a way to bring about those

725
00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:42,400
silly primitive people broke their limbs

726
00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:44,240
as a way to like bring about you know

727
00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:45,760
positive

728
00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:47,840
you know experiences in life when we

729
00:25:51,669 --> 00:25:49,360
don't mean it that way at all

730
00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:51,679
right and that's just even uh you know

731
00:25:57,110 --> 00:25:55,039
just with english and so

732
00:26:00,390 --> 00:25:57,120
we really have to parse this out and

733
00:26:03,110 --> 00:26:00,400
that's my biggest sort of frustration

734
00:26:04,630 --> 00:26:03,120
is when people have really strong views

735
00:26:07,430 --> 00:26:04,640
and they're not doing any of that

736
00:26:10,070 --> 00:26:07,440
they're not at all sort of considering

737
00:26:12,950 --> 00:26:10,080
how much are they oh like overlaying on

738
00:26:15,190 --> 00:26:12,960
top of the original scripture um

739
00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:15,200
you know even something like uh you know

740
00:26:18,710 --> 00:26:17,200
the figure of satan

741
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:18,720
when you

742
00:26:22,549 --> 00:26:20,960
study in the original languages

743
00:26:24,950 --> 00:26:22,559
like we've had some

744
00:26:27,669 --> 00:26:24,960
chance to do you see actually an

745
00:26:29,909 --> 00:26:27,679
evolution of this satanic figure first

746
00:26:32,070 --> 00:26:29,919
being sort of part of the the council of

747
00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:32,080
the godhead and over time becoming kind

748
00:26:35,990 --> 00:26:33,840
of like this individualized

749
00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:36,000
personification of evil

750
00:26:40,630 --> 00:26:38,640
which to me says more about the

751
00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:40,640
evolution of human consciousness and our

752
00:26:45,830 --> 00:26:42,960
tendency to want to project things again

753
00:26:46,870 --> 00:26:45,840
in a binary way right black or white so

754
00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:46,880
not only have we done that with our

755
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:49,200
religious tradition but we also tend to

756
00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:52,080
map that on to these others especially

757
00:26:55,190 --> 00:26:53,679
when they're doing things because after

758
00:26:56,710 --> 00:26:55,200
all they're not human

759
00:26:59,510 --> 00:26:56,720
it's not surprising they're doing things

760
00:27:02,710 --> 00:26:59,520
that shock us surprise us feel

761
00:27:05,190 --> 00:27:02,720
uncannily strange but we then map them

762
00:27:06,870 --> 00:27:05,200
onto categories that feel familiar and

763
00:27:09,110 --> 00:27:06,880
comfortable to us and i think

764
00:27:12,149 --> 00:27:09,120
prematurely

765
00:27:13,669 --> 00:27:12,159
yeah and that's you know to come back to

766
00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:13,679
valuing

767
00:27:17,430 --> 00:27:15,600
that that perspective

768
00:27:19,750 --> 00:27:17,440
you know we have a a

769
00:27:22,149 --> 00:27:19,760
powerful ability when we initially meet

770
00:27:24,310 --> 00:27:22,159
someone to categorize them as friend or

771
00:27:26,710 --> 00:27:24,320
foe you know is this person going to be

772
00:27:29,669 --> 00:27:26,720
okay from interact with or not okay now

773
00:27:32,710 --> 00:27:29,679
the the reality is that that is a snap

774
00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:32,720
judgment uh and that snap judgment is is

775
00:27:36,549 --> 00:27:34,480
helpful it has some evolutionary

776
00:27:38,149 --> 00:27:36,559
advantages that we can do that

777
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:38,159
but through

778
00:27:42,870 --> 00:27:41,600
relationship is where that snap judgment

779
00:27:45,190 --> 00:27:42,880
dissolves

780
00:27:47,750 --> 00:27:45,200
and if you're really in a relationship

781
00:27:50,149 --> 00:27:47,760
with someone you recognize that

782
00:27:51,029 --> 00:27:50,159
these easy categorizations of friend or

783
00:27:53,830 --> 00:27:51,039
foe

784
00:27:55,110 --> 00:27:53,840
don't quite fit you know you you can

785
00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:55,120
have if you're in a meaningful

786
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:57,360
relationship with anyone you know

787
00:28:00,230 --> 00:27:58,640
that they're going to be they're going

788
00:28:02,470 --> 00:28:00,240
to be moments in that relationship that

789
00:28:05,669 --> 00:28:02,480
are not great uh that are you know that

790
00:28:07,909 --> 00:28:05,679
are uh antagonistic and um even

791
00:28:09,510 --> 00:28:07,919
vitriolic you know sometimes

792
00:28:11,669 --> 00:28:09,520
um but then there are gonna be moments

793
00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:11,679
that are you know deeply meaningful and

794
00:28:16,070 --> 00:28:13,760
valuable and uh and you would still call

795
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:16,080
them your you know your lifelong friend

796
00:28:20,070 --> 00:28:18,480
or your partner or whatever you know

797
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:20,080
this is sort of that

798
00:28:23,110 --> 00:28:22,000
sort of encouragement i would say to go

799
00:28:25,510 --> 00:28:23,120
deeper

800
00:28:27,430 --> 00:28:25,520
in in relating not just with those who

801
00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:27,440
are around you but relating with the

802
00:28:31,909 --> 00:28:30,080
topic itself you know so we can have a

803
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:31,919
very sort of tertiary

804
00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:34,880
uh and a quick snap judgment view of the

805
00:28:39,110 --> 00:28:37,840
phenomenon and just as that is useful in

806
00:28:40,789 --> 00:28:39,120
in the moment

807
00:28:42,950 --> 00:28:40,799
you know for our own sort of sense of

808
00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:42,960
self-preservation

809
00:28:47,269 --> 00:28:44,640
it's less useful

810
00:28:49,510 --> 00:28:47,279
over time as we interact with it and

811
00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:49,520
seek it and engage with it and i think

812
00:28:54,950 --> 00:28:52,480
that that says a lot about

813
00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:54,960
not only who we are but really more

814
00:29:01,029 --> 00:28:58,399
broadly about what experience is like

815
00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:01,039
period you know so

816
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:03,840
there's a value we talk about

817
00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:05,760
kind of this binary value judgment good

818
00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:08,000
good and bad but there's a value to

819
00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:10,000
experience itself

820
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:11,760
that transcends those easy

821
00:29:16,149 --> 00:29:13,440
categorizations

822
00:29:17,269 --> 00:29:16,159
and that's a quality at least i think

823
00:29:20,789 --> 00:29:17,279
and you know i think we're probably

824
00:29:24,310 --> 00:29:20,799
aligned here that that's a quality of of

825
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:24,320
experience itself of of of of reality

826
00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:27,600
itself that that easy categorization is

827
00:29:31,029 --> 00:29:28,799
something that

828
00:29:32,549 --> 00:29:31,039
we just really kind of need to jettison

829
00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:32,559
it's not that it's

830
00:29:36,230 --> 00:29:35,440
useless it has its purpose

831
00:29:39,190 --> 00:29:36,240
but

832
00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:39,200
when you go deeper on on this it it it

833
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:41,760
kind of dissolves just it it gets so

834
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:44,240
permeable that it's it's not a useful

835
00:29:48,630 --> 00:29:46,720
sort of means of of categorizing

836
00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:48,640
anything anymore

837
00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:50,880
yeah absolutely agree and i think it's a

838
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:52,720
point we really want to i think hit home

839
00:29:56,549 --> 00:29:55,440
here is that like you uh pointed to

840
00:29:59,190 --> 00:29:56,559
there

841
00:30:00,630 --> 00:29:59,200
from an evolutionary point of view we

842
00:30:02,310 --> 00:30:00,640
end up in situations where we have to

843
00:30:04,389 --> 00:30:02,320
make snap judgments sometimes to stay

844
00:30:05,510 --> 00:30:04,399
alive you know when our ancestors

845
00:30:07,750 --> 00:30:05,520
encountered

846
00:30:09,750 --> 00:30:07,760
uh a growling animal in the in the

847
00:30:11,750 --> 00:30:09,760
bushes of the jungle you know they have

848
00:30:13,510 --> 00:30:11,760
to make a snap judgment does that sound

849
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:13,520
like something that's uh likely to eat

850
00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:16,080
me or is that a friend you know

851
00:30:20,230 --> 00:30:17,440
and

852
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:20,240
so we've evolved to make these snap

853
00:30:26,470 --> 00:30:23,600
judgments right but i think

854
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:26,480
by that very token we therefore

855
00:30:29,909 --> 00:30:28,080
uh we're now in a situation where we're

856
00:30:32,310 --> 00:30:29,919
not necessarily having to make those

857
00:30:33,350 --> 00:30:32,320
snap judgments for survival reasons

858
00:30:34,870 --> 00:30:33,360
and yet

859
00:30:37,510 --> 00:30:34,880
and this has been kind of proven too is

860
00:30:39,510 --> 00:30:37,520
that we we now have adrenaline shooting

861
00:30:41,029 --> 00:30:39,520
through our bodies because of anxiety

862
00:30:43,029 --> 00:30:41,039
and things like that and rather than it

863
00:30:44,789 --> 00:30:43,039
being a shot of adrenaline that lets you

864
00:30:46,149 --> 00:30:44,799
outrun that lion you know for our

865
00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:46,159
ancestors

866
00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:47,760
instead it becomes i'm worried about

867
00:30:50,389 --> 00:30:49,440
what's happening at work or whatever or

868
00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:50,399
the way that

869
00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:52,320
you know this person looked at me

870
00:30:56,389 --> 00:30:54,399
and so you're this adrenaline just keeps

871
00:30:58,789 --> 00:30:56,399
cycling in your body and so

872
00:31:00,710 --> 00:30:58,799
the adrenaline in

873
00:31:02,789 --> 00:31:00,720
a short burst actually actually helps

874
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:02,799
you run fast right but if it just keeps

875
00:31:06,310 --> 00:31:04,399
cycling in your body it's actually

876
00:31:08,310 --> 00:31:06,320
detrimental and toxic to your body and

877
00:31:10,470 --> 00:31:08,320
will break down your internal organs are

878
00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:10,480
in eventually that's an example where

879
00:31:14,630 --> 00:31:12,559
our evolutionary

880
00:31:15,590 --> 00:31:14,640
biology can work against us you know and

881
00:31:17,190 --> 00:31:15,600
so we

882
00:31:20,310 --> 00:31:17,200
we are now

883
00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:20,320
having to consciously choose to sort of

884
00:31:24,710 --> 00:31:23,279
evolve past that and and in this topic

885
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:24,720
and many others

886
00:31:29,269 --> 00:31:26,640
it actually takes discipline you're

887
00:31:32,230 --> 00:31:29,279
actually swimming upstream initially

888
00:31:33,029 --> 00:31:32,240
to resist jumping to a quick conclusions

889
00:31:37,909 --> 00:31:33,039
and

890
00:31:39,430 --> 00:31:37,919
try to let yourself parse out the

891
00:31:41,909 --> 00:31:39,440
elements from you know and again

892
00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:41,919
distinguish that from an interpretation

893
00:31:47,029 --> 00:31:44,640
but what we're encouraging in all the

894
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:47,039
topics we discuss is that that kind of

895
00:31:50,789 --> 00:31:48,559
degree of nuance

896
00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:50,799
and again that self-awareness to know

897
00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:52,559
when is your history

898
00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:53,760
um

899
00:31:57,509 --> 00:31:55,679
bringing elements to the table that are

900
00:31:59,990 --> 00:31:57,519
not there beforehand

901
00:32:02,630 --> 00:32:00,000
um i think that's that's essential and

902
00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:02,640
like you said it's it's it's not helpful

903
00:32:06,630 --> 00:32:04,480
to do that and it's funny when we

904
00:32:09,029 --> 00:32:06,640
sometimes do think back to

905
00:32:10,789 --> 00:32:09,039
like you said friends loved ones

906
00:32:12,310 --> 00:32:10,799
that initially sometimes we might have

907
00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:12,320
had the completely wrong impression of

908
00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:13,760
something then over time you're like oh

909
00:32:16,710 --> 00:32:15,440
actually when that person does this

910
00:32:18,470 --> 00:32:16,720
that's just this funny funny

911
00:32:19,990 --> 00:32:18,480
idiosyncrasy they have they don't mean

912
00:32:21,430 --> 00:32:20,000
anything by it right when initially we

913
00:32:23,029 --> 00:32:21,440
were like oh wow what's that guy trying

914
00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:23,039
to say you know

915
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:26,080
and and on that same by the same token

916
00:32:30,389 --> 00:32:27,760
it's the people who sometimes have

917
00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:30,399
repeated encounters with these others

918
00:32:35,190 --> 00:32:33,200
that do develop a kind of relational uh

919
00:32:38,789 --> 00:32:35,200
experience with them right and they and

920
00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:38,799
they begin to feel more like an equal um

921
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:40,960
that's part of it as well

922
00:32:45,990 --> 00:32:42,720
and i also would add i think we should

923
00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:47,029
to try and look at from their

924
00:32:51,509 --> 00:32:49,200
perspective too part of the literature

925
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:51,519
right is that we can tend to act like

926
00:32:54,710 --> 00:32:53,039
spooked animals right like we're the

927
00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:54,720
raccoon that's cornered right and we're

928
00:32:58,710 --> 00:32:56,640
gonna like lash out

929
00:33:01,509 --> 00:32:58,720
so there there has been some suggestion

930
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:01,519
that in some people's cases the others

931
00:33:06,230 --> 00:33:04,000
over time grow to trust us more and then

932
00:33:08,950 --> 00:33:06,240
treat us more like what we experience as

933
00:33:09,990 --> 00:33:08,960
being equals because we don't you know

934
00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:10,000
they trust that we're not going to

935
00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:12,880
respond like fighting frightened animals

936
00:33:15,990 --> 00:33:14,960
it is a complex tapestry again when

937
00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:16,000
you've got

938
00:33:20,549 --> 00:33:18,240
very different biologies

939
00:33:21,750 --> 00:33:20,559
it's already so much to like even trying

940
00:33:23,110 --> 00:33:21,760
to communicate with someone from a

941
00:33:25,509 --> 00:33:23,120
different cultural

942
00:33:27,669 --> 00:33:25,519
background within human civilization

943
00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:27,679
when you add in completely different

944
00:33:30,549 --> 00:33:29,200
biology

945
00:33:32,070 --> 00:33:30,559
experience of space time might be

946
00:33:34,149 --> 00:33:32,080
completely different

947
00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:34,159
you know if nathan showed up at exo's

948
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:36,240
house and said hey exo i'm here against

949
00:33:39,110 --> 00:33:37,360
at the end of your bed in the middle of

950
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:39,120
the night you know i might be like

951
00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:40,720
nathan i'd rather you not do that you

952
00:33:45,269 --> 00:33:42,559
know can you find can you call and text

953
00:33:47,590 --> 00:33:45,279
me whatever and it it's and that's what

954
00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:47,600
they do right and again from our point

955
00:33:50,630 --> 00:33:48,480
of view

956
00:33:53,590 --> 00:33:50,640
we we assume they should know better

957
00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:53,600
right but what i'm questioning is

958
00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:55,840
again their experience of reality itself

959
00:33:59,669 --> 00:33:57,600
their experience of personhood might be

960
00:34:01,110 --> 00:33:59,679
so different that that doesn't occur to

961
00:34:02,950 --> 00:34:01,120
them and we need to be

962
00:34:05,110 --> 00:34:02,960
open to all those possibilities and

963
00:34:08,470 --> 00:34:05,120
really try to max out on the number of

964
00:34:11,030 --> 00:34:08,480
variables that might be in play here

965
00:34:12,470 --> 00:34:11,040
absolutely and uh you know less people

966
00:34:14,470 --> 00:34:12,480
think that we

967
00:34:17,270 --> 00:34:14,480
are you know kind of beating up on those

968
00:34:20,710 --> 00:34:17,280
that may come at this from a you know

969
00:34:25,669 --> 00:34:23,270
do not fear because we are also going to

970
00:34:27,589 --> 00:34:25,679
commit those who who don't consider

971
00:34:29,909 --> 00:34:27,599
themselves religious and look at the

972
00:34:32,230 --> 00:34:29,919
phenomenon from a scientific

973
00:34:33,829 --> 00:34:32,240
perspective and look at

974
00:34:37,669 --> 00:34:33,839
you know that world view and how it

975
00:34:39,829 --> 00:34:37,679
examines uh particular aspects of of the

976
00:34:41,669 --> 00:34:39,839
phenomenon throughout the literature

977
00:34:43,750 --> 00:34:41,679
and and and and how that perspective

978
00:34:46,310 --> 00:34:43,760
that kind of more scientific vantage

979
00:34:48,790 --> 00:34:46,320
point does just the same thing that that

980
00:34:51,510 --> 00:34:48,800
those who in the religious uh sort of

981
00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:51,520
worldview tend to do and binary you know

982
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:53,520
easy categorization some you know

983
00:34:57,430 --> 00:34:55,280
examples that come to mind the one

984
00:35:01,190 --> 00:34:57,440
that's uh i think probably

985
00:35:04,310 --> 00:35:02,710
i think pretty hard about this one when

986
00:35:06,390 --> 00:35:04,320
i see it come up and in twitter or

987
00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:06,400
whatnot and you know the example of well

988
00:35:12,230 --> 00:35:09,280
they you know they shut off our nukes

989
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:12,240
and so you know that that's them

990
00:35:15,589 --> 00:35:13,920
being good you know they're trying to

991
00:35:17,510 --> 00:35:15,599
prevent us from

992
00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:17,520
nuking each other so they're they're

993
00:35:21,109 --> 00:35:18,800
they're they're good just because of

994
00:35:22,950 --> 00:35:21,119
that behavior

995
00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:22,960
well i don't know maybe not you know

996
00:35:26,950 --> 00:35:24,960
maybe maybe they're not shutting off

997
00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:26,960
nukes to protect us

998
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:28,960
they certainly didn't stop us from

999
00:35:33,510 --> 00:35:31,440
testing nuclear weapons uh hundreds of

1000
00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:33,520
times in our atmosphere and oceans and

1001
00:35:37,910 --> 00:35:34,800
whatnot

1002
00:35:39,829 --> 00:35:37,920
and and on each other

1003
00:35:42,630 --> 00:35:39,839
you know other examples are

1004
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:42,640
uh stories of healing you know well they

1005
00:35:46,069 --> 00:35:44,000
you know had this encounter with this

1006
00:35:48,310 --> 00:35:46,079
being and i was completely healed and

1007
00:35:49,990 --> 00:35:48,320
therefore this being is good it has my

1008
00:35:51,750 --> 00:35:50,000
best interest at heart

1009
00:35:54,390 --> 00:35:51,760
um

1010
00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:54,400
or uh you know this this relationship i

1011
00:35:59,750 --> 00:35:56,400
had with this being you know helped me

1012
00:36:01,510 --> 00:35:59,760
to see myself as a as an eternal

1013
00:36:04,069 --> 00:36:01,520
you know being of my own i'm going on

1014
00:36:05,510 --> 00:36:04,079
this cosmic journey and okay so that

1015
00:36:07,589 --> 00:36:05,520
that's also good

1016
00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:07,599
um you know there are lots of different

1017
00:36:11,430 --> 00:36:09,119
examples here

1018
00:36:13,109 --> 00:36:11,440
uh you know that we can look at on the

1019
00:36:15,109 --> 00:36:13,119
bad side you know we've heard about

1020
00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:15,119
stories of implantation

1021
00:36:19,750 --> 00:36:17,760
uh you know they put a little device in

1022
00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:19,760
me so that must be really bad

1023
00:36:24,870 --> 00:36:22,480
uh we all know from our own experiments

1024
00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:24,880
we do with tracking animals and whatnot

1025
00:36:29,109 --> 00:36:26,880
and implantation isn't us

1026
00:36:32,310 --> 00:36:29,119
uh trying to be malicious towards that

1027
00:36:33,990 --> 00:36:32,320
uh you know sort of uh animal out on the

1028
00:36:35,510 --> 00:36:34,000
on the savannah you know we're just

1029
00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:35,520
trying to keep up with it make sure that

1030
00:36:38,870 --> 00:36:37,200
it's healthy and we're you know studying

1031
00:36:40,470 --> 00:36:38,880
its migratory patterns all those kinds

1032
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:40,480
of different things

1033
00:36:43,589 --> 00:36:41,680
um

1034
00:36:45,270 --> 00:36:43,599
you know so it

1035
00:36:47,990 --> 00:36:45,280
there there are lots of examples here

1036
00:36:49,750 --> 00:36:48,000
where we can take this

1037
00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:49,760
you know sort of almost like you can

1038
00:36:53,109 --> 00:36:51,599
think about like in a laboratory like

1039
00:36:55,510 --> 00:36:53,119
this happened to me

1040
00:36:58,150 --> 00:36:55,520
and because it didn't hurt me

1041
00:37:00,470 --> 00:36:58,160
then you know it was good because it

1042
00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:00,480
helped me it was good but you know in

1043
00:37:04,950 --> 00:37:02,880
this case it hurt me it burned me or it

1044
00:37:07,109 --> 00:37:04,960
hurt someone else that i know so it was

1045
00:37:08,710 --> 00:37:07,119
bad you know there's no religious

1046
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:08,720
baggage to this

1047
00:37:13,990 --> 00:37:11,200
sort of judgment whatsoever

1048
00:37:15,910 --> 00:37:14,000
but it but it jumps to the same kinds of

1049
00:37:17,670 --> 00:37:15,920
easy conclusions

1050
00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:17,680
and you know we can look throughout the

1051
00:37:20,470 --> 00:37:19,200
literature and say well i'm kind of

1052
00:37:25,270 --> 00:37:20,480
doing a

1053
00:37:27,349 --> 00:37:25,280
good sort of outcomes in the literature

1054
00:37:29,990 --> 00:37:27,359
are far outweigh the bad so it's you

1055
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:30,000
know it's good uh the big takeaway here

1056
00:37:33,190 --> 00:37:31,440
is it's good don't worry everybody uh

1057
00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:33,200
the bad stuff is like minor and probably

1058
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:36,800
accidental it's mostly fine so i know

1059
00:37:39,990 --> 00:37:38,400
what you think about that yeah i mean

1060
00:37:42,230 --> 00:37:40,000
that perspective so it's interesting the

1061
00:37:44,230 --> 00:37:42,240
way you phrase that there because

1062
00:37:46,470 --> 00:37:44,240
again when we try to get people to think

1063
00:37:47,990 --> 00:37:46,480
about the unspoken assumptions

1064
00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:48,000
one of the assumptions and what in that

1065
00:37:51,910 --> 00:37:49,680
argument you just presented was that

1066
00:37:53,910 --> 00:37:51,920
it's all one actor right so you're

1067
00:37:55,829 --> 00:37:53,920
weighing the good and the bad and saying

1068
00:37:56,870 --> 00:37:55,839
you know all in all comes up more in the

1069
00:37:59,670 --> 00:37:56,880
positive

1070
00:38:04,630 --> 00:37:59,680
but what if there's like three or four

1071
00:38:06,790 --> 00:38:04,640
or 47 or 7 000 actors you know and um

1072
00:38:09,829 --> 00:38:06,800
not only in terms of like we know within

1073
00:38:11,990 --> 00:38:09,839
human populations that it's silly to say

1074
00:38:14,150 --> 00:38:12,000
humans are good or bad right or or to

1075
00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:14,160
make this sort of like

1076
00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:16,720
moral scale and put humans at a 50. it

1077
00:38:20,069 --> 00:38:18,800
really depends on the person

1078
00:38:22,790 --> 00:38:20,079
um

1079
00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:22,800
and their level of development all sorts

1080
00:38:26,630 --> 00:38:24,400
of things right

1081
00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:26,640
um

1082
00:38:31,910 --> 00:38:29,280
yeah it's it's interesting how

1083
00:38:33,910 --> 00:38:31,920
if he what i would suggest to people is

1084
00:38:36,870 --> 00:38:33,920
actually practice

1085
00:38:39,910 --> 00:38:36,880
regardless of what um interpretation you

1086
00:38:41,670 --> 00:38:39,920
lean towards practice doing the opposite

1087
00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:41,680
like practice you know playing devil's

1088
00:38:45,990 --> 00:38:43,680
advocate um

1089
00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:46,000
and and try to convince yourself of the

1090
00:38:50,310 --> 00:38:48,240
alternate perspective and see how far

1091
00:38:52,310 --> 00:38:50,320
you get there

1092
00:38:54,550 --> 00:38:52,320
so for instance with the the nukes

1093
00:38:56,630 --> 00:38:54,560
situation you talked about right so for

1094
00:38:58,790 --> 00:38:56,640
people who are not familiar there's lots

1095
00:39:00,710 --> 00:38:58,800
and lots of evidence again it's amazing

1096
00:39:02,790 --> 00:39:00,720
to us i think who know these things that

1097
00:39:05,349 --> 00:39:02,800
it's not headline news

1098
00:39:07,030 --> 00:39:05,359
you know if china was sending or russia

1099
00:39:09,109 --> 00:39:07,040
was sitting across

1100
00:39:10,710 --> 00:39:09,119
their jets and circling our nuclear

1101
00:39:12,390 --> 00:39:10,720
installations and turning off nuclear

1102
00:39:14,390 --> 00:39:12,400
silos you can guarantee it would be

1103
00:39:16,470 --> 00:39:14,400
headline news for some reason when it's

1104
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:16,480
a ufo partly of course it's partly

1105
00:39:20,230 --> 00:39:17,920
because it's been suppressed but for the

1106
00:39:21,430 --> 00:39:20,240
people who've really done the work

1107
00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:21,440
you know

1108
00:39:26,790 --> 00:39:24,640
it's very very clear so they show up

1109
00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:26,800
they are seen nearby and the next thing

1110
00:39:32,790 --> 00:39:30,079
you know these nuclear weapons are taken

1111
00:39:34,710 --> 00:39:32,800
offline so that if in that moment the

1112
00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:34,720
adversary were to launch nuclear weapons

1113
00:39:38,150 --> 00:39:36,880
we could not return fire basically is

1114
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:38,160
the way it works

1115
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:39,119
and

1116
00:39:43,270 --> 00:39:41,440
it's such a complex combination of ways

1117
00:39:45,430 --> 00:39:43,280
they manipulate our technology to make

1118
00:39:47,270 --> 00:39:45,440
that happen that we don't even know how

1119
00:39:48,870 --> 00:39:47,280
it happens like we it's not like we say

1120
00:39:51,430 --> 00:39:48,880
oh yeah if you switch off you know the

1121
00:39:53,190 --> 00:39:51,440
red button and line one two three that's

1122
00:39:54,550 --> 00:39:53,200
going to bring everything down

1123
00:39:57,109 --> 00:39:54,560
in other words the way they are

1124
00:39:59,670 --> 00:39:57,119
manipulating our technology surprises us

1125
00:40:02,150 --> 00:39:59,680
even though it's our technology

1126
00:40:03,910 --> 00:40:02,160
but that i would say is an ambiguous

1127
00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:03,920
event in many ways you know you could

1128
00:40:07,190 --> 00:40:05,520
say that

1129
00:40:09,030 --> 00:40:07,200
when someone makes the argument oh

1130
00:40:10,790 --> 00:40:09,040
that's them trying to send us a coded

1131
00:40:13,349 --> 00:40:10,800
message that nuclear weapons are really

1132
00:40:15,349 --> 00:40:13,359
dangerous you should get off this train

1133
00:40:17,349 --> 00:40:15,359
right before you crash

1134
00:40:19,270 --> 00:40:17,359
maybe but that's certainly not the only

1135
00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:19,280
interpretation of that right i've heard

1136
00:40:22,790 --> 00:40:21,040
other arguments that they

1137
00:40:24,790 --> 00:40:22,800
they may be on a trial run just making

1138
00:40:26,790 --> 00:40:24,800
sure that they really have a good take

1139
00:40:29,349 --> 00:40:26,800
on how our nuclear weapons work so they

1140
00:40:31,349 --> 00:40:29,359
might use us to use them against us or

1141
00:40:32,710 --> 00:40:31,359
maybe it's in some in that particular

1142
00:40:34,630 --> 00:40:32,720
case speaking of the possibility of

1143
00:40:37,349 --> 00:40:34,640
multiple actors maybe that's the

1144
00:40:40,150 --> 00:40:37,359
breakaway civilization human faction

1145
00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:40,160
right there that are planning some sort

1146
00:40:44,230 --> 00:40:42,720
of takeover of the nation states and

1147
00:40:45,750 --> 00:40:44,240
they are actually on a trial run to make

1148
00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:45,760
sure that their technology really can

1149
00:40:50,069 --> 00:40:48,480
manipulate our nuclear technology so

1150
00:40:52,630 --> 00:40:50,079
we're basically defenseless when they

1151
00:40:55,750 --> 00:40:52,640
choose to do something i mean there's so

1152
00:40:58,069 --> 00:40:55,760
many hypothesis hypotheses postulating

1153
00:40:59,750 --> 00:40:58,079
different actors including one of them

1154
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:59,760
being a breakaway human civilization

1155
00:41:02,550 --> 00:41:01,440
that might have mastered anti-grav you

1156
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:02,560
and i were talking about this before we

1157
00:41:06,790 --> 00:41:05,440
went on the air tonight um

1158
00:41:07,670 --> 00:41:06,800
there's so many possibilities so when

1159
00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:07,680
you

1160
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:08,800
again

1161
00:41:11,750 --> 00:41:10,160
i don't have a problem with people

1162
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:11,760
having a position

1163
00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:14,160
but i would ask people to actively try

1164
00:41:18,790 --> 00:41:16,319
to convince yourself of the opposite

1165
00:41:21,190 --> 00:41:18,800
and at least be aware practice

1166
00:41:23,349 --> 00:41:21,200
self-awareness around what assumptions

1167
00:41:24,470 --> 00:41:23,359
you're bringing to the table

1168
00:41:26,630 --> 00:41:24,480
again

1169
00:41:28,950 --> 00:41:26,640
i know that i've many many times tended

1170
00:41:30,790 --> 00:41:28,960
towards this notion that

1171
00:41:32,470 --> 00:41:30,800
they seem to be trying to warn us about

1172
00:41:33,589 --> 00:41:32,480
nuclear weapons you know we think about

1173
00:41:36,150 --> 00:41:33,599
the whole

1174
00:41:37,990 --> 00:41:36,160
you know the mid to late 40s and they

1175
00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:38,000
were showing up right at the time when

1176
00:41:42,230 --> 00:41:40,000
we were beginning to you know detonate

1177
00:41:43,750 --> 00:41:42,240
atomic bombs and testing

1178
00:41:47,270 --> 00:41:43,760
um

1179
00:41:49,109 --> 00:41:47,280
that that's some sort of

1180
00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:49,119
whoa whoa what are you doing humans like

1181
00:41:52,710 --> 00:41:51,040
you're messing with stuff that's really

1182
00:41:54,470 --> 00:41:52,720
dangerous and we have no choice but to

1183
00:41:56,309 --> 00:41:54,480
show up now

1184
00:41:57,910 --> 00:41:56,319
but you could make the argument okay if

1185
00:42:00,790 --> 00:41:57,920
that is what they're doing could they

1186
00:42:02,550 --> 00:42:00,800
not be clear like why a coded message

1187
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:02,560
and if it's a coded message is it even

1188
00:42:07,510 --> 00:42:04,880
working like are we seeing any evidence

1189
00:42:08,550 --> 00:42:07,520
that the the superpowers are convinced

1190
00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:08,560
by these

1191
00:42:13,349 --> 00:42:11,280
strange coded messages about

1192
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:13,359
fake crashes of craft in the desert that

1193
00:42:17,270 --> 00:42:14,800
are actually meant to be coded messages

1194
00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:17,280
saying get off that train

1195
00:42:20,309 --> 00:42:18,560
um

1196
00:42:22,150 --> 00:42:20,319
it doesn't seem to be working if that

1197
00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:22,160
was the case so i that's the kind of

1198
00:42:25,990 --> 00:42:24,160
thing i do i i actually

1199
00:42:27,109 --> 00:42:26,000
willfully practice being on both sides

1200
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:27,119
of the fence

1201
00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:28,800
and then when i do that i think i have

1202
00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:30,640
to conv i have to be honest with myself

1203
00:42:33,750 --> 00:42:31,599
and say

1204
00:42:36,069 --> 00:42:33,760
it's ambiguous at the end of the day and

1205
00:42:38,150 --> 00:42:36,079
again to be okay with not knowing if the

1206
00:42:40,309 --> 00:42:38,160
data is really not

1207
00:42:41,990 --> 00:42:40,319
strongly compellingly pointing in one

1208
00:42:45,829 --> 00:42:42,000
direction over the other then i say we

1209
00:42:49,109 --> 00:42:45,839
just stay neutral

1210
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:49,119
i resonate with that a lot i i also kind

1211
00:42:54,230 --> 00:42:50,960
of wonder

1212
00:42:56,470 --> 00:42:54,240
if uh if experience ramps up as it you

1213
00:42:59,349 --> 00:42:56,480
know seemingly might be

1214
00:43:00,870 --> 00:42:59,359
um

1215
00:43:02,710 --> 00:43:00,880
it strikes me that there will be more

1216
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:02,720
opportunities for

1217
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:04,720
in a sort of new interaction with

1218
00:43:09,270 --> 00:43:06,240
whatever this is

1219
00:43:12,470 --> 00:43:09,280
and it's one thing to you know i think

1220
00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:12,480
very comfortably discuss it and you know

1221
00:43:16,630 --> 00:43:14,720
kind of evaluate things from different

1222
00:43:18,150 --> 00:43:16,640
perspectives but in the in the moment of

1223
00:43:18,950 --> 00:43:18,160
a new experience

1224
00:43:20,470 --> 00:43:18,960
uh

1225
00:43:22,710 --> 00:43:20,480
you know it seems like it would be

1226
00:43:24,069 --> 00:43:22,720
pretty easy instinct will kick in

1227
00:43:26,790 --> 00:43:24,079
you know this is something that i'm

1228
00:43:29,589 --> 00:43:26,800
going to uh you know

1229
00:43:31,109 --> 00:43:29,599
be okay with or run from or what have

1230
00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:31,119
you

1231
00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:34,880
suppose

1232
00:43:39,990 --> 00:43:37,920
is that a couple of things one that if

1233
00:43:42,150 --> 00:43:40,000
experiences increase that those

1234
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:42,160
experiences involve more than just one

1235
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:44,480
individual you know that that if there

1236
00:43:49,109 --> 00:43:46,560
is a group of individuals having

1237
00:43:52,230 --> 00:43:49,119
experience together that that improves

1238
00:43:53,829 --> 00:43:52,240
our chances probably of reaching a more

1239
00:43:55,030 --> 00:43:53,839
kind of nuanced

1240
00:43:55,990 --> 00:43:55,040
interaction

1241
00:43:57,510 --> 00:43:56,000
uh

1242
00:43:59,750 --> 00:43:57,520
you know but also

1243
00:44:01,829 --> 00:43:59,760
if um

1244
00:44:03,430 --> 00:44:01,839
if if that does if the increase if the

1245
00:44:04,470 --> 00:44:03,440
experiences increase i would hope that

1246
00:44:06,230 --> 00:44:04,480
we have

1247
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:06,240
you know kind of more time

1248
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:08,480
there as well that it's not just a kind

1249
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:11,280
of punctuated you know let me

1250
00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:13,280
this this just appears and disappears

1251
00:44:17,910 --> 00:44:15,520
apparates and disappears that there's

1252
00:44:21,030 --> 00:44:17,920
you know some element of uh

1253
00:44:23,190 --> 00:44:21,040
you know engagement that allows for

1254
00:44:25,349 --> 00:44:23,200
the human being to go through the

1255
00:44:26,870 --> 00:44:25,359
motions of of reaction

1256
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:26,880
uh because

1257
00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:28,800
you know i find it um

1258
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:30,800
you know myself very you know very

1259
00:44:34,790 --> 00:44:32,400
comfortably being in this you know sort

1260
00:44:36,790 --> 00:44:34,800
of nuanced position i also kind of have

1261
00:44:38,630 --> 00:44:36,800
to admit that if you know being not

1262
00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:38,640
being experienced or if i was suddenly

1263
00:44:41,190 --> 00:44:39,440
one

1264
00:44:43,589 --> 00:44:41,200
i i don't know how i would react in the

1265
00:44:45,510 --> 00:44:43,599
moment so it's um

1266
00:44:46,630 --> 00:44:45,520
it's almost as if there's like a stages

1267
00:44:47,589 --> 00:44:46,640
to this

1268
00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:47,599
that

1269
00:44:53,430 --> 00:44:52,000
valuable you know but it's important i

1270
00:44:55,430 --> 00:44:53,440
think before

1271
00:44:57,349 --> 00:44:55,440
a moment like that occurs

1272
00:44:59,430 --> 00:44:57,359
to go through this exercise so if you

1273
00:45:01,030 --> 00:44:59,440
haven't had an experience like myself

1274
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:01,040
you know it's good to go through this

1275
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:03,760
thought exercise it's good to examine

1276
00:45:08,309 --> 00:45:05,760
you know kind of what you might jump to

1277
00:45:10,390 --> 00:45:08,319
as a ready easy conclusion and then push

1278
00:45:12,470 --> 00:45:10,400
yourself to go past that doesn't mean

1279
00:45:14,230 --> 00:45:12,480
you won't necessarily

1280
00:45:16,069 --> 00:45:14,240
have that reaction if it even when it

1281
00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:16,079
happens to you but at least you'll have

1282
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:18,800
spent some time and some homework on you

1283
00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:20,400
know thinking through

1284
00:45:25,750 --> 00:45:22,160
what it may really be

1285
00:45:27,510 --> 00:45:25,760
if and when that interaction takes place

1286
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:27,520
yeah it's a great point and i completely

1287
00:45:30,230 --> 00:45:28,800
agree

1288
00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:30,240
and i think

1289
00:45:35,589 --> 00:45:33,200
by doing that we actually can flesh out

1290
00:45:36,550 --> 00:45:35,599
some of those presuppositions right

1291
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:36,560
um

1292
00:45:39,670 --> 00:45:38,240
when we suddenly put yourself in that

1293
00:45:40,710 --> 00:45:39,680
position you wake up in the middle of

1294
00:45:43,349 --> 00:45:40,720
the night and there's some sort of

1295
00:45:44,870 --> 00:45:43,359
insectoid being at the end of your bed

1296
00:45:46,630 --> 00:45:44,880
you know as an example i remember one

1297
00:45:49,349 --> 00:45:46,640
time i found this

1298
00:45:50,630 --> 00:45:49,359
blown-up picture i think of a wasp like

1299
00:45:52,309 --> 00:45:50,640
it was really really blown up

1300
00:45:54,550 --> 00:45:52,319
microscopic you know picture of this

1301
00:45:55,829 --> 00:45:54,560
wasp so it looked like life like human

1302
00:45:57,829 --> 00:45:55,839
size right

1303
00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:57,839
and so i posted it i remember to twitter

1304
00:46:01,349 --> 00:45:59,599
a couple years ago and said

1305
00:46:03,270 --> 00:46:01,359
so picture yourself you wake up it's 3

1306
00:46:04,950 --> 00:46:03,280
am this thing's like singing at the end

1307
00:46:06,630 --> 00:46:04,960
of the bed and and the crazy thing about

1308
00:46:08,550 --> 00:46:06,640
this picture of this wap is it actually

1309
00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:08,560
had like its head leaning against it's

1310
00:46:12,230 --> 00:46:10,640
like whatever you call it it's four paw

1311
00:46:13,829 --> 00:46:12,240
whatever you call it and it looked

1312
00:46:15,190 --> 00:46:13,839
almost like contemplative and i said so

1313
00:46:16,550 --> 00:46:15,200
imagine you wake up and it's looking at

1314
00:46:18,550 --> 00:46:16,560
you right which many people have had

1315
00:46:19,829 --> 00:46:18,560
that kind of experience

1316
00:46:21,589 --> 00:46:19,839
and and

1317
00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:21,599
picture yourself like in that moment how

1318
00:46:26,150 --> 00:46:24,400
do you respond you know and and by doing

1319
00:46:28,790 --> 00:46:26,160
that number one

1320
00:46:31,109 --> 00:46:28,800
we become aware of the presuppositions

1321
00:46:32,950 --> 00:46:31,119
we might bring to it and number two i

1322
00:46:35,349 --> 00:46:32,960
think we can learn to desensitize

1323
00:46:37,270 --> 00:46:35,359
ourselves uh you know when people have

1324
00:46:39,270 --> 00:46:37,280
fears of spiders

1325
00:46:40,950 --> 00:46:39,280
how do they help people get over it they

1326
00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:40,960
actually bring them around spiders right

1327
00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:43,520
like first they talk about them and then

1328
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:45,920
they might have like a picture of one

1329
00:46:49,670 --> 00:46:47,839
like 20 feet away

1330
00:46:51,750 --> 00:46:49,680
and eventually gets the point where they

1331
00:46:53,670 --> 00:46:51,760
have one under a glass and then maybe

1332
00:46:55,829 --> 00:46:53,680
even one time you let one sit on the

1333
00:46:57,829 --> 00:46:55,839
palm of your hand you know and it's that

1334
00:46:58,790 --> 00:46:57,839
slow desensitization

1335
00:47:01,190 --> 00:46:58,800
that

1336
00:47:03,589 --> 00:47:01,200
changes someone's orientation right uh

1337
00:47:05,430 --> 00:47:03,599
to that kind of creature because it's

1338
00:47:07,589 --> 00:47:05,440
not rational right that that kind of

1339
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:07,599
response we have

1340
00:47:11,190 --> 00:47:09,119
i mean you could say it's rational in a

1341
00:47:13,349 --> 00:47:11,200
way that it's sort of again bound to our

1342
00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:13,359
deep evolutionary history you come

1343
00:47:17,349 --> 00:47:15,040
across a creature that does not look

1344
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:17,359
familiar and doesn't look

1345
00:47:22,069 --> 00:47:19,440
like something you know of so you don't

1346
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:22,079
have associations where you can say okay

1347
00:47:28,309 --> 00:47:25,440
black panther not good you know

1348
00:47:29,910 --> 00:47:28,319
monkey okay uh when you can't do that

1349
00:47:33,430 --> 00:47:29,920
then your our brains have been wired to

1350
00:47:36,549 --> 00:47:33,440
say fear run you know danger

1351
00:47:41,109 --> 00:47:38,710
we can actually train ourselves to to

1352
00:47:43,030 --> 00:47:41,119
desensitize ourselves to that beforehand

1353
00:47:45,750 --> 00:47:43,040
so i agree with you it's it's good on tw

1354
00:47:47,270 --> 00:47:45,760
two levels one because you become aware

1355
00:47:48,790 --> 00:47:47,280
of what your

1356
00:47:50,470 --> 00:47:48,800
response is like it to be and so you

1357
00:47:53,030 --> 00:47:50,480
bring in some more self-awareness about

1358
00:47:55,270 --> 00:47:53,040
your presuppositions

1359
00:47:58,309 --> 00:47:55,280
and you also have the ability to begin

1360
00:48:00,230 --> 00:47:58,319
to change maybe how you would respond

1361
00:48:02,630 --> 00:48:00,240
i think that's definitely worthwhile and

1362
00:48:04,069 --> 00:48:02,640
i think in any kind of

1363
00:48:05,430 --> 00:48:04,079
event you have to go through in life if

1364
00:48:06,790 --> 00:48:05,440
you're nervous about it kind of

1365
00:48:09,030 --> 00:48:06,800
practicing ahead of time putting

1366
00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:09,040
yourself in that position actually can

1367
00:48:14,710 --> 00:48:11,440
help you to deal differently with it in

1368
00:48:16,630 --> 00:48:14,720
real time when it actually happens

1369
00:48:17,750 --> 00:48:16,640
right and and i would encourage people

1370
00:48:19,750 --> 00:48:17,760
to

1371
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:19,760
practice where you can you know so it's

1372
00:48:24,150 --> 00:48:23,040
not as if uh you need an entity

1373
00:48:25,750 --> 00:48:24,160
to uh

1374
00:48:27,670 --> 00:48:25,760
appear at the foot of your bed to go

1375
00:48:29,589 --> 00:48:27,680
through this practice you know you

1376
00:48:31,430 --> 00:48:29,599
hopefully if you're listening you're

1377
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:31,440
having you're in a relationship with

1378
00:48:35,829 --> 00:48:33,119
with someone you know whether it be a

1379
00:48:38,470 --> 00:48:35,839
parent or a child or a partner

1380
00:48:40,470 --> 00:48:38,480
a teacher a mentor whatever it is you

1381
00:48:42,549 --> 00:48:40,480
know human beings are

1382
00:48:45,910 --> 00:48:42,559
generally in community

1383
00:48:47,030 --> 00:48:45,920
and we have opportunity every single day

1384
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:47,040
to

1385
00:48:51,510 --> 00:48:48,960
practice and choose

1386
00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:51,520
uh engagement with those who are around

1387
00:48:55,030 --> 00:48:52,400
us

1388
00:48:57,910 --> 00:48:55,040
rather than disengagement and judgment

1389
00:48:59,829 --> 00:48:57,920
uh and easy categorization and i you

1390
00:49:01,990 --> 00:48:59,839
know i those of you who know me know

1391
00:49:04,150 --> 00:49:02,000
that this is you know maybe a bit of a

1392
00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:04,160
high horse that i get onto but you know

1393
00:49:08,470 --> 00:49:06,400
i think in our in our current you know

1394
00:49:10,309 --> 00:49:08,480
sort of social media environment that is

1395
00:49:13,030 --> 00:49:10,319
primed and designed

1396
00:49:14,790 --> 00:49:13,040
to get us to uh you know sort of fight

1397
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:14,800
each other um

1398
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:16,400
and attack each other

1399
00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:18,000
you know

1400
00:49:21,990 --> 00:49:19,760
in a way

1401
00:49:24,470 --> 00:49:22,000
that that medium presents to us an

1402
00:49:26,470 --> 00:49:24,480
opportunity to put into practice the

1403
00:49:28,950 --> 00:49:26,480
very things we've just talked about you

1404
00:49:31,190 --> 00:49:28,960
know it gives you opportunity to look at

1405
00:49:32,950 --> 00:49:31,200
you know whoever posted

1406
00:49:34,390 --> 00:49:32,960
something that you know infuriated you

1407
00:49:36,549 --> 00:49:34,400
you know just one you want to get to

1408
00:49:37,750 --> 00:49:36,559
that keyboard asap and you know fire

1409
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:37,760
back at them

1410
00:49:41,990 --> 00:49:40,079
uh instead to take a moment you know

1411
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:42,000
think about what that person is saying

1412
00:49:46,710 --> 00:49:44,640
where that person is coming from uh you

1413
00:49:48,309 --> 00:49:46,720
know is there a way that you if you're

1414
00:49:49,670 --> 00:49:48,319
going to engage with them is there a way

1415
00:49:51,190 --> 00:49:49,680
that you can have a meaningful

1416
00:49:53,109 --> 00:49:51,200
engagement with them

1417
00:49:55,670 --> 00:49:53,119
rather than you know sort of fire right

1418
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:55,680
back you know i'm of the opinion that

1419
00:50:00,630 --> 00:49:58,400
that more engagement is better

1420
00:50:02,150 --> 00:50:00,640
in almost every situation

1421
00:50:03,430 --> 00:50:02,160
the more we can create meaningful

1422
00:50:05,190 --> 00:50:03,440
relationship

1423
00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:05,200
uh the more we're going to get to know

1424
00:50:09,829 --> 00:50:07,520
each other we're going to get past these

1425
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:09,839
easy judgments and we're going to have

1426
00:50:14,870 --> 00:50:12,800
more fulfilling relationships and lives

1427
00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:14,880
and that's an opportunity that we have

1428
00:50:19,589 --> 00:50:17,680
all around us all the time so whether

1429
00:50:21,829 --> 00:50:19,599
the phenomenon hopefully you're not

1430
00:50:23,910 --> 00:50:21,839
waiting for the phenomenon to put this

1431
00:50:27,510 --> 00:50:23,920
into practice in other words because if

1432
00:50:29,670 --> 00:50:27,520
you are you know i i really feel that

1433
00:50:31,030 --> 00:50:29,680
you will not have had the experience

1434
00:50:34,150 --> 00:50:31,040
that you need

1435
00:50:36,710 --> 00:50:34,160
to to really enter into that moment with

1436
00:50:38,309 --> 00:50:36,720
the right state of mind and presence and

1437
00:50:40,470 --> 00:50:38,319
and wisdom

1438
00:50:43,589 --> 00:50:40,480
essentially to to properly relate to

1439
00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:43,599
whatever it is

1440
00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:44,480
yeah

1441
00:50:49,109 --> 00:50:46,559
to sort of um offer a different

1442
00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:49,119
perspective here imagine that

1443
00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:51,599
some of these beings and and i'm

1444
00:50:56,950 --> 00:50:53,440
i definitely lean towards there being

1445
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:56,960
numerous actors numerous origin sources

1446
00:51:01,030 --> 00:50:59,040
that is part of the phenomenon i can't

1447
00:51:02,630 --> 00:51:01,040
say that enough because i think i want

1448
00:51:05,270 --> 00:51:02,640
everyone to remember that whenever i'm

1449
00:51:07,109 --> 00:51:05,280
talking about these things i must be

1450
00:51:09,589 --> 00:51:07,119
referencing an element because i don't

1451
00:51:10,710 --> 00:51:09,599
think it's all one thing i think that

1452
00:51:14,069 --> 00:51:10,720
there's something worth probably

1453
00:51:15,430 --> 00:51:14,079
addressing here i think some people say

1454
00:51:17,829 --> 00:51:15,440
because i think this is a fallacious

1455
00:51:19,990 --> 00:51:17,839
argument actually some people will say

1456
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:20,000
because they can manifest as anything

1457
00:51:25,270 --> 00:51:22,720
they can manipulate our consciousness

1458
00:51:27,270 --> 00:51:25,280
they can appear as one thing and then

1459
00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:27,280
change it to something else

1460
00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:28,720
because of that

1461
00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:30,960
this must all be one thing

1462
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:33,760
just with multiple manifestations

1463
00:51:36,790 --> 00:51:35,520
that doesn't follow for me that's one

1464
00:51:38,710 --> 00:51:36,800
possibility

1465
00:51:40,309 --> 00:51:38,720
but there's many other factors we have

1466
00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:40,319
to take into consideration like for

1467
00:51:44,790 --> 00:51:41,680
instance with

1468
00:51:46,790 --> 00:51:44,800
again sort of c5 protocols

1469
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:46,800
again when you look at the data i want

1470
00:51:51,190 --> 00:51:48,880
to whenever you want to sort of get past

1471
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:51,200
your own bias i think one of the best

1472
00:51:55,750 --> 00:51:52,800
things you can do is look at the body of

1473
00:51:57,750 --> 00:51:55,760
data and the body of data for ce5 tells

1474
00:51:59,990 --> 00:51:57,760
us that the vast majority of the time

1475
00:52:01,750 --> 00:52:00,000
people have positive experiences and

1476
00:52:03,750 --> 00:52:01,760
even in the few cases where they aren't

1477
00:52:06,710 --> 00:52:03,760
positive experiences i've often found

1478
00:52:08,470 --> 00:52:06,720
that there are mitigating circumstances

1479
00:52:11,430 --> 00:52:08,480
that may

1480
00:52:13,750 --> 00:52:11,440
have created an unusual circumstance

1481
00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:13,760
there so i'm not saying therefore i'm

1482
00:52:17,430 --> 00:52:15,680
you know dismissing anybody who has had

1483
00:52:19,750 --> 00:52:17,440
a negative ce5 experience but i'm just

1484
00:52:21,190 --> 00:52:19,760
saying when you look at the body of data

1485
00:52:22,710 --> 00:52:21,200
there seems to be a tendency there and

1486
00:52:24,069 --> 00:52:22,720
it seems to be trending towards the

1487
00:52:26,309 --> 00:52:24,079
positive

1488
00:52:27,030 --> 00:52:26,319
and i'm not i'm not even convinced that

1489
00:52:33,349 --> 00:52:27,040
the

1490
00:52:35,589 --> 00:52:33,359
that we're contacting with cu5

1491
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:35,599
my leaning right now is that it's not

1492
00:52:39,030 --> 00:52:37,119
the same group

1493
00:52:41,670 --> 00:52:39,040
i had someone ask me that recently you

1494
00:52:42,950 --> 00:52:41,680
know and i certainly wouldn't say i know

1495
00:52:45,430 --> 00:52:42,960
because i don't

1496
00:52:47,270 --> 00:52:45,440
but when i look at the patterns to me

1497
00:52:49,589 --> 00:52:47,280
when i look at the body of data i see

1498
00:52:51,750 --> 00:52:49,599
two different patterns and so that at

1499
00:52:53,910 --> 00:52:51,760
least in my mind creates the possibility

1500
00:52:55,670 --> 00:52:53,920
that here we have two different groups

1501
00:52:57,990 --> 00:52:55,680
and so when people ask me oh do you

1502
00:52:59,910 --> 00:52:58,000
trust a phenomenon man i'm like well

1503
00:53:01,510 --> 00:52:59,920
that's a complex question and even the

1504
00:53:03,349 --> 00:53:01,520
way you ask that makes it sound like

1505
00:53:04,870 --> 00:53:03,359
it's one thing and then people are like

1506
00:53:06,630 --> 00:53:04,880
okay we'll see you later like they don't

1507
00:53:08,309 --> 00:53:06,640
really want to you know have a long

1508
00:53:09,670 --> 00:53:08,319
conversation and parse out all this

1509
00:53:11,109 --> 00:53:09,680
nuance but that's what we're trying to

1510
00:53:13,589 --> 00:53:11,119
do on this show

1511
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:13,599
and and on top of that

1512
00:53:16,710 --> 00:53:15,119
you know that i've been doing a lot of

1513
00:53:19,270 --> 00:53:16,720
work around

1514
00:53:20,630 --> 00:53:19,280
the mentation processes we bring to this

1515
00:53:23,109 --> 00:53:20,640
that that

1516
00:53:25,190 --> 00:53:23,119
who we are our energetic signature if

1517
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:25,200
you will how much anxiety fear or

1518
00:53:29,270 --> 00:53:27,280
positivity and love

1519
00:53:30,309 --> 00:53:29,280
we bring to the situation how much that

1520
00:53:32,230 --> 00:53:30,319
seems to

1521
00:53:35,829 --> 00:53:32,240
prime these experiences especially in

1522
00:53:38,150 --> 00:53:35,839
kind of like a an astral subtle reality

1523
00:53:40,230 --> 00:53:38,160
kind of frame which is what many of

1524
00:53:43,109 --> 00:53:40,240
these seems to happen again when we look

1525
00:53:45,829 --> 00:53:43,119
at the free data we talked about before

1526
00:53:47,589 --> 00:53:45,839
the majority of people experienced this

1527
00:53:49,270 --> 00:53:47,599
these encounters in a kind of altered

1528
00:53:51,349 --> 00:53:49,280
state of consciousness or an alternate

1529
00:53:54,829 --> 00:53:51,359
realm in other words it didn't feel to

1530
00:53:57,990 --> 00:53:54,839
them like their normal 3d waking world

1531
00:54:00,069 --> 00:53:58,000
so that sounds a lot like subtle reality

1532
00:54:02,390 --> 00:54:00,079
and in subtle reality we know this from

1533
00:54:05,990 --> 00:54:02,400
other kind of psychedelic trips and um

1534
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:06,000
astral projection and meditation

1535
00:54:10,870 --> 00:54:08,400
we know from those um sort of esoteric

1536
00:54:12,790 --> 00:54:10,880
traditions that what you bring to the

1537
00:54:14,630 --> 00:54:12,800
picture really often gets fed back to

1538
00:54:17,349 --> 00:54:14,640
you so there's that entire aspect too

1539
00:54:20,230 --> 00:54:17,359
that we can't take ourselves out of the

1540
00:54:21,109 --> 00:54:20,240
picture as one of the variables right

1541
00:54:22,790 --> 00:54:21,119
so

1542
00:54:24,470 --> 00:54:22,800
again i think

1543
00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:24,480
people might listen to us here and think

1544
00:54:26,710 --> 00:54:25,760
wow these guys are going all over the

1545
00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:26,720
place

1546
00:54:29,910 --> 00:54:28,400
we're just trying to say there are many

1547
00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:29,920
many factors

1548
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:32,079
and and to be cognizant of that you know

1549
00:54:35,190 --> 00:54:33,599
like whenever you do a scientific

1550
00:54:36,870 --> 00:54:35,200
experiment

1551
00:54:39,270 --> 00:54:36,880
one of the assumptions is that you'll be

1552
00:54:41,910 --> 00:54:39,280
able to identify all the variables that

1553
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:41,920
are factors in that in the outcome and

1554
00:54:45,430 --> 00:54:44,000
by controlling for

1555
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:45,440
all the other variables and you just

1556
00:54:49,510 --> 00:54:47,520
leave one that's in play you can make

1557
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:49,520
conclusions about what role that one

1558
00:54:53,030 --> 00:54:51,520
plays about the behavior of nature right

1559
00:54:54,870 --> 00:54:53,040
and that's how we

1560
00:54:56,390 --> 00:54:54,880
develop technology and things and and

1561
00:54:58,630 --> 00:54:56,400
move forward

1562
00:55:00,710 --> 00:54:58,640
but if we're honest we we don't know

1563
00:55:02,950 --> 00:55:00,720
what the variables are here so it's very

1564
00:55:04,870 --> 00:55:02,960
difficult to design experiments and it's

1565
00:55:06,950 --> 00:55:04,880
even more difficult to

1566
00:55:08,390 --> 00:55:06,960
draw sharp conclusions when we don't

1567
00:55:10,069 --> 00:55:08,400
even know if we're controlling for all

1568
00:55:11,990 --> 00:55:10,079
of the correct variables

1569
00:55:15,589 --> 00:55:12,000
knowing that our consciousness itself

1570
00:55:20,470 --> 00:55:17,829
great points there and the issue of

1571
00:55:22,870 --> 00:55:20,480
control i think is uh you know

1572
00:55:25,990 --> 00:55:22,880
incredibly salient because

1573
00:55:28,789 --> 00:55:26,000
you know it's it seems to me that the

1574
00:55:31,990 --> 00:55:28,799
the ways in which we do talk about

1575
00:55:34,069 --> 00:55:32,000
engaging with whatever this is

1576
00:55:37,109 --> 00:55:34,079
as you've pointed out so well it could

1577
00:55:38,069 --> 00:55:37,119
be so many different things

1578
00:55:41,750 --> 00:55:38,079
the

1579
00:55:44,309 --> 00:55:41,760
subtext in a way is this need to control

1580
00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:44,319
what that will be like you know so

1581
00:55:48,309 --> 00:55:46,640
we're good at

1582
00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:48,319
in our in our in our search for

1583
00:55:51,349 --> 00:55:49,680
understanding

1584
00:55:53,430 --> 00:55:51,359
you know in some ways our search for

1585
00:55:56,069 --> 00:55:53,440
understanding is driven by

1586
00:55:58,870 --> 00:55:56,079
our need to control

1587
00:56:00,950 --> 00:55:58,880
whatever it is it may be so the better

1588
00:56:03,750 --> 00:56:00,960
that i can categorize the better that i

1589
00:56:06,710 --> 00:56:03,760
can sort of model out

1590
00:56:08,150 --> 00:56:06,720
interaction or behavior that gives me a

1591
00:56:10,549 --> 00:56:08,160
greater sense of

1592
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:10,559
peace and control but there is this

1593
00:56:14,950 --> 00:56:13,359
component that is absolutely present

1594
00:56:17,109 --> 00:56:14,960
literature that is that is lack of

1595
00:56:19,030 --> 00:56:17,119
control you know so there is and we've

1596
00:56:22,789 --> 00:56:19,040
talked about this a little bit as well

1597
00:56:26,150 --> 00:56:22,799
uh in our personal conversations that

1598
00:56:27,030 --> 00:56:26,160
there is a there's a human quality

1599
00:56:31,430 --> 00:56:27,040
of

1600
00:56:34,390 --> 00:56:31,440
that in some ways

1601
00:56:36,870 --> 00:56:34,400
you know helps kind of open up the door

1602
00:56:39,190 --> 00:56:36,880
uh that that we all

1603
00:56:41,109 --> 00:56:39,200
may need to be

1604
00:56:44,309 --> 00:56:41,119
relinquished our our need for that

1605
00:56:46,470 --> 00:56:44,319
control in order to be open to whatever

1606
00:56:47,589 --> 00:56:46,480
it is that this may be

1607
00:56:50,470 --> 00:56:47,599
so

1608
00:56:53,270 --> 00:56:50,480
you know i do think it's important that

1609
00:56:54,630 --> 00:56:53,280
we carefully study and plan and think

1610
00:56:57,750 --> 00:56:54,640
through

1611
00:57:00,069 --> 00:56:57,760
the various facets of whatever this is

1612
00:57:02,470 --> 00:57:00,079
and uh and approach it from a nuanced

1613
00:57:03,910 --> 00:57:02,480
perspective because it i think that just

1614
00:57:05,190 --> 00:57:03,920
arms us with

1615
00:57:06,789 --> 00:57:05,200
more

1616
00:57:07,589 --> 00:57:06,799
knowledge preparedness whatever it may

1617
00:57:09,990 --> 00:57:07,599
be

1618
00:57:11,190 --> 00:57:10,000
but we have to leave some space and i

1619
00:57:13,829 --> 00:57:11,200
really would love to get your thoughts

1620
00:57:15,750 --> 00:57:13,839
you know what is the appropriate space

1621
00:57:17,829 --> 00:57:15,760
to leave here for

1622
00:57:20,630 --> 00:57:17,839
lack of control

1623
00:57:22,630 --> 00:57:20,640
for just kind of letting it go

1624
00:57:24,630 --> 00:57:22,640
yeah i think one of the um

1625
00:57:27,670 --> 00:57:24,640
the practices that i

1626
00:57:29,270 --> 00:57:27,680
work with and i encourage others

1627
00:57:31,589 --> 00:57:29,280
is around

1628
00:57:32,630 --> 00:57:31,599
proactively developing a larger sense of

1629
00:57:35,349 --> 00:57:32,640
self

1630
00:57:37,750 --> 00:57:35,359
um because i think you could make the

1631
00:57:40,230 --> 00:57:37,760
argument again amongst the ambiguity of

1632
00:57:42,789 --> 00:57:40,240
the data one of the arguments is that i

1633
00:57:45,990 --> 00:57:42,799
think jacqueline's made this argument

1634
00:57:47,030 --> 00:57:46,000
that they may be slowly um

1635
00:57:48,950 --> 00:57:47,040
leading us

1636
00:57:51,750 --> 00:57:48,960
towards a new understanding of reality

1637
00:57:53,670 --> 00:57:51,760
itself that all of the absurdity and the

1638
00:57:56,230 --> 00:57:53,680
and the the strange elements that seem

1639
00:57:59,030 --> 00:57:56,240
to be coming together here that it's all

1640
00:58:01,030 --> 00:57:59,040
meant to slowly but surely lead us down

1641
00:58:03,349 --> 00:58:01,040
a path towards seeing reality

1642
00:58:06,710 --> 00:58:03,359
differently and only when we do

1643
00:58:09,270 --> 00:58:06,720
can we then be ready for massive contact

1644
00:58:11,589 --> 00:58:09,280
and a huge part of that process is us

1645
00:58:13,510 --> 00:58:11,599
beginning to see ourselves differently

1646
00:58:14,870 --> 00:58:13,520
so one of the things i'm very interested

1647
00:58:17,030 --> 00:58:14,880
in is

1648
00:58:18,390 --> 00:58:17,040
proactively working on

1649
00:58:20,390 --> 00:58:18,400
um

1650
00:58:22,230 --> 00:58:20,400
taking the executive ego offline

1651
00:58:23,829 --> 00:58:22,240
basically is the way i would describe it

1652
00:58:25,589 --> 00:58:23,839
because when the executive ego is on

1653
00:58:29,190 --> 00:58:25,599
charge when it's sitting on the throne

1654
00:58:31,430 --> 00:58:29,200
it's all about me i have a very defined

1655
00:58:33,829 --> 00:58:31,440
rigid understanding of what serves me

1656
00:58:34,950 --> 00:58:33,839
versus what helps everybody else

1657
00:58:36,950 --> 00:58:34,960
and

1658
00:58:39,109 --> 00:58:36,960
that's not helpful in reality in general

1659
00:58:42,390 --> 00:58:39,119
that's created a lot of the you know

1660
00:58:43,990 --> 00:58:42,400
trauma in the world and the conflict

1661
00:58:46,309 --> 00:58:44,000
when

1662
00:58:49,109 --> 00:58:46,319
underlyingly through various practices

1663
00:58:50,870 --> 00:58:49,119
meditation even psychedelic journeys uh

1664
00:58:53,349 --> 00:58:50,880
there's even sometimes experience with

1665
00:58:55,510 --> 00:58:53,359
the others right near-death experiences

1666
00:58:57,190 --> 00:58:55,520
out-of-body experiences

1667
00:58:58,789 --> 00:58:57,200
lucid dreams all these different

1668
00:59:00,549 --> 00:58:58,799
modalities

1669
00:59:02,549 --> 00:59:00,559
one thing they have in common is often

1670
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:02,559
they help to break down

1671
00:59:07,510 --> 00:59:04,880
that strong attachment to the executive

1672
00:59:10,150 --> 00:59:07,520
ego this strong attachment to defining

1673
00:59:11,990 --> 00:59:10,160
ourselves as this one iteration in this

1674
00:59:13,829 --> 00:59:12,000
body that you know had these experiences

1675
00:59:15,349 --> 00:59:13,839
and that's who i am man don't try and

1676
00:59:16,309 --> 00:59:15,359
change it

1677
00:59:18,230 --> 00:59:16,319
when we

1678
00:59:20,230 --> 00:59:18,240
engage in these different modalities

1679
00:59:21,829 --> 00:59:20,240
what they all tend to do

1680
00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:21,839
part of the reason why people even come

1681
00:59:24,789 --> 00:59:23,280
back from near-death experiences

1682
00:59:27,030 --> 00:59:24,799
out-of-body experiences

1683
00:59:28,230 --> 00:59:27,040
experiences with the others psychedelic

1684
00:59:30,150 --> 00:59:28,240
journeys

1685
00:59:32,390 --> 00:59:30,160
they come back

1686
00:59:34,470 --> 00:59:32,400
valuing money differently valuing wealth

1687
00:59:35,829 --> 00:59:34,480
differently being more caring towards

1688
00:59:37,510 --> 00:59:35,839
other people

1689
00:59:39,190 --> 00:59:37,520
and it's not because they like were

1690
00:59:41,670 --> 00:59:39,200
exposed to some pamphlet about how to be

1691
00:59:44,150 --> 00:59:41,680
a good human being in 2022

1692
00:59:46,069 --> 00:59:44,160
it's literally that their understanding

1693
00:59:47,349 --> 00:59:46,079
of self has been broadened that they

1694
00:59:48,630 --> 00:59:47,359
have actually

1695
00:59:51,030 --> 00:59:48,640
literally

1696
00:59:53,829 --> 00:59:51,040
begun to experience themselves as the

1697
00:59:56,150 --> 00:59:53,839
interconnectivity between all sentient

1698
00:59:58,309 --> 00:59:56,160
life and when you do that even your

1699
01:00:01,270 --> 00:59:58,319
sense of what it means to be to act in

1700
01:00:03,190 --> 01:00:01,280
self-interest literally changes you

1701
01:00:05,750 --> 01:00:03,200
literally

1702
01:00:08,390 --> 01:00:05,760
out of self-interest want the entire

1703
01:00:10,950 --> 01:00:08,400
planet to benefit not just even human

1704
01:00:12,870 --> 01:00:10,960
civilization and but the entire planet

1705
01:00:16,549 --> 01:00:12,880
itself and then all sentient life so we

1706
01:00:17,270 --> 01:00:16,559
have this expanding uh you know interest

1707
01:00:19,670 --> 01:00:17,280
in

1708
01:00:21,750 --> 01:00:19,680
life across the cosmos we if you look

1709
01:00:24,150 --> 01:00:21,760
back at human history that's kind of the

1710
01:00:25,430 --> 01:00:24,160
trajectory as much as we can sometimes

1711
01:00:27,270 --> 01:00:25,440
in the moment get caught up with how

1712
01:00:29,589 --> 01:00:27,280
much conflict there is

1713
01:00:32,150 --> 01:00:29,599
the long trajectory is that we've had

1714
01:00:35,030 --> 01:00:32,160
ever expanding circles of inclusion and

1715
01:00:37,670 --> 01:00:35,040
that means how we even define who we are

1716
01:00:40,230 --> 01:00:37,680
right our tribe gets larger and larger

1717
01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:40,240
um but even who we are as individuals

1718
01:00:45,030 --> 01:00:43,440
and um so i i would i would encourage

1719
01:00:46,390 --> 01:00:45,040
people to practice that as a as a

1720
01:00:48,390 --> 01:00:46,400
general thing i think it helps you get

1721
01:00:50,950 --> 01:00:48,400
through life better i think that you

1722
01:00:53,589 --> 01:00:50,960
um you are able to

1723
01:00:55,829 --> 01:00:53,599
handle difficulties that arise much

1724
01:00:57,990 --> 01:00:55,839
you know much more flexibly when you

1725
01:00:59,829 --> 01:00:58,000
have that sort of absolute view of

1726
01:01:01,750 --> 01:00:59,839
interconnectivity between all sentient

1727
01:01:03,910 --> 01:01:01,760
life consciousness itself right the

1728
01:01:04,950 --> 01:01:03,920
bedrock as opposed to what's happening

1729
01:01:07,670 --> 01:01:04,960
to

1730
01:01:09,670 --> 01:01:07,680
nathan and his little life and right now

1731
01:01:11,109 --> 01:01:09,680
where he's living

1732
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:11,119
and in terms of

1733
01:01:16,870 --> 01:01:13,920
preparing us for experiencing others

1734
01:01:19,829 --> 01:01:16,880
that presumably are also part of that

1735
01:01:23,030 --> 01:01:19,839
interconnected consciousness web

1736
01:01:24,870 --> 01:01:23,040
it helps us get there too

1737
01:01:27,030 --> 01:01:24,880
what i love about that is that it is

1738
01:01:30,309 --> 01:01:27,040
something that you can practice

1739
01:01:32,630 --> 01:01:30,319
you know so that you can practice

1740
01:01:34,950 --> 01:01:32,640
greater levels of association

1741
01:01:36,390 --> 01:01:34,960
rather than disassociation you know you

1742
01:01:38,870 --> 01:01:36,400
you can

1743
01:01:42,230 --> 01:01:38,880
and and i wonder often wonder

1744
01:01:43,109 --> 01:01:42,240
this ability that we have to do that

1745
01:01:45,030 --> 01:01:43,119
that

1746
01:01:47,910 --> 01:01:45,040
tells us doesn't it something a little

1747
01:01:49,270 --> 01:01:47,920
bit about what this all really is you

1748
01:01:52,789 --> 01:01:49,280
know so

1749
01:01:55,029 --> 01:01:52,799
you and i have a very uh are given a

1750
01:01:56,630 --> 01:01:55,039
very strong sense of self

1751
01:01:58,069 --> 01:01:56,640
you know in the culture that we've been

1752
01:02:00,870 --> 01:01:58,079
born into

1753
01:02:05,029 --> 01:02:00,880
we're pretty good at at the eye part

1754
01:02:07,510 --> 01:02:05,039
the me part the individual agency part

1755
01:02:09,270 --> 01:02:07,520
we're really not good in the west about

1756
01:02:10,390 --> 01:02:09,280
and and i would say just generally too

1757
01:02:11,670 --> 01:02:10,400
in the globe

1758
01:02:14,069 --> 01:02:11,680
about the we

1759
01:02:15,349 --> 01:02:14,079
and and the ways in which we intersect

1760
01:02:18,150 --> 01:02:15,359
with each other

1761
01:02:20,230 --> 01:02:18,160
you know and it affects every aspect of

1762
01:02:22,390 --> 01:02:20,240
our thinking so when i look out the

1763
01:02:24,710 --> 01:02:22,400
window and i look at a tree

1764
01:02:26,069 --> 01:02:24,720
you know i i just immediately think hey

1765
01:02:28,549 --> 01:02:26,079
there's a tree

1766
01:02:31,990 --> 01:02:28,559
what i don't think about is that tree

1767
01:02:34,470 --> 01:02:32,000
and the roots and the soil and the

1768
01:02:36,870 --> 01:02:34,480
mycelial network it may be connected to

1769
01:02:39,750 --> 01:02:36,880
that is connected to other plants

1770
01:02:42,150 --> 01:02:39,760
uh other entities that live in the tree

1771
01:02:44,549 --> 01:02:42,160
uh that feed off of the tree you know

1772
01:02:46,549 --> 01:02:44,559
the trees are part of my own enjoyment

1773
01:02:49,349 --> 01:02:46,559
you know looking at it it becomes a part

1774
01:02:51,750 --> 01:02:49,359
of me in that way so that these are

1775
01:02:54,789 --> 01:02:51,760
layers and different modes in which i

1776
01:02:57,029 --> 01:02:54,799
can experience that tree

1777
01:02:59,190 --> 01:02:57,039
both as an individuated thing but as

1778
01:03:01,990 --> 01:02:59,200
something that is interconnected

1779
01:03:03,990 --> 01:03:02,000
to all of the things around me and and i

1780
01:03:06,710 --> 01:03:04,000
would encourage

1781
01:03:09,029 --> 01:03:06,720
our listeners and all of us to make this

1782
01:03:11,670 --> 01:03:09,039
more a part of our practice right that

1783
01:03:13,190 --> 01:03:11,680
this is this be something that we can do

1784
01:03:15,670 --> 01:03:13,200
in our day-to-day

1785
01:03:17,349 --> 01:03:15,680
lived experience we can you know we can

1786
01:03:19,510 --> 01:03:17,359
go on a walk we can think about these

1787
01:03:21,910 --> 01:03:19,520
things we can evaluate the things that

1788
01:03:24,950 --> 01:03:21,920
we see hear smell taste

1789
01:03:26,630 --> 01:03:24,960
from these various levels and and that

1790
01:03:27,510 --> 01:03:26,640
exercise

1791
01:03:29,670 --> 01:03:27,520
does

1792
01:03:30,390 --> 01:03:29,680
in my opinion prime us

1793
01:03:32,710 --> 01:03:30,400
to

1794
01:03:34,390 --> 01:03:32,720
uh being more prepared

1795
01:03:36,069 --> 01:03:34,400
for what this

1796
01:03:39,270 --> 01:03:36,079
the kind of the base

1797
01:03:40,789 --> 01:03:39,280
nature of reality actually is and and i

1798
01:03:42,549 --> 01:03:40,799
say all that to say

1799
01:03:44,710 --> 01:03:42,559
it's still okay to have individual

1800
01:03:46,710 --> 01:03:44,720
experiences it's still okay to have a

1801
01:03:48,870 --> 01:03:46,720
strong sense of me

1802
01:03:50,789 --> 01:03:48,880
and we do need that you know you're not

1803
01:03:52,789 --> 01:03:50,799
going to be able to navigate the world

1804
01:03:54,309 --> 01:03:52,799
that you find yourself in if you just

1805
01:03:55,910 --> 01:03:54,319
think you're part of everything around

1806
01:03:57,430 --> 01:03:55,920
you all the time

1807
01:03:58,870 --> 01:03:57,440
i can guarantee you're probably going to

1808
01:04:01,270 --> 01:03:58,880
hurt yourself

1809
01:04:02,870 --> 01:04:01,280
so you know there are ways that we need

1810
01:04:04,950 --> 01:04:02,880
to sort of think about this and do it

1811
01:04:05,670 --> 01:04:04,960
carefully but that's not to say that

1812
01:04:09,670 --> 01:04:05,680
it's

1813
01:04:13,670 --> 01:04:09,680
tremendous value

1814
01:04:15,430 --> 01:04:13,680
both for our humanity but also for our

1815
01:04:17,670 --> 01:04:15,440
experience with

1816
01:04:19,829 --> 01:04:17,680
whatever it is that is out there whether

1817
01:04:21,349 --> 01:04:19,839
it's a singular thing or multiplicity of

1818
01:04:24,150 --> 01:04:21,359
things

1819
01:04:26,630 --> 01:04:24,160
this dynamic is going to come into that

1820
01:04:29,029 --> 01:04:26,640
conversation and be part of whatever

1821
01:04:30,470 --> 01:04:29,039
that new narrative relationship happens

1822
01:04:33,589 --> 01:04:30,480
to be

1823
01:04:36,549 --> 01:04:33,599
so this entire exercise is incredibly

1824
01:04:38,870 --> 01:04:36,559
important and very meaningful and our

1825
01:04:42,630 --> 01:04:38,880
ability to do this to

1826
01:04:45,270 --> 01:04:42,640
to both disassociate and associate

1827
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:45,280
this gives meaning to our own lives but

1828
01:04:50,230 --> 01:04:47,760
will also add meaning and value

1829
01:04:52,150 --> 01:04:50,240
to our experience with the phenomenon

1830
01:04:54,710 --> 01:04:52,160
whether it be a singular phenomena or

1831
01:04:58,150 --> 01:04:54,720
multiplicity of phenomena it's only

1832
01:04:59,190 --> 01:04:58,160
going to provide a richer experience and

1833
01:05:02,230 --> 01:04:59,200
i think

1834
01:05:04,870 --> 01:05:02,240
and add tremendous value to our own our

1835
01:05:06,710 --> 01:05:04,880
own our own sense of self but also our

1836
01:05:09,990 --> 01:05:06,720
sense of you know where we are in the

1837
01:05:11,829 --> 01:05:10,000
world and and who we are together in in

1838
01:05:13,910 --> 01:05:11,839
community not just with our kind of

1839
01:05:15,510 --> 01:05:13,920
fellow humans but with whatever it is as

1840
01:05:17,430 --> 01:05:15,520
well

1841
01:05:18,470 --> 01:05:17,440
yeah absolutely and i think that you

1842
01:05:20,029 --> 01:05:18,480
know we

1843
01:05:23,190 --> 01:05:20,039
sort of began by talking about

1844
01:05:25,270 --> 01:05:23,200
presuppositions and biases that we bring

1845
01:05:25,990 --> 01:05:25,280
i mean i'll be you know honest and say

1846
01:05:28,630 --> 01:05:26,000
that

1847
01:05:31,109 --> 01:05:28,640
one of the presuppositions i bring is is

1848
01:05:33,029 --> 01:05:31,119
this sort of interconnected web of all

1849
01:05:36,390 --> 01:05:33,039
sentient life you know as part of this

1850
01:05:38,390 --> 01:05:36,400
bedrock of consciousness and that

1851
01:05:40,870 --> 01:05:38,400
notions like matter and energy i think

1852
01:05:42,470 --> 01:05:40,880
are derivatives of consciousness i think

1853
01:05:44,390 --> 01:05:42,480
that's the root

1854
01:05:46,470 --> 01:05:44,400
and that's not because exo likes that

1855
01:05:48,230 --> 01:05:46,480
better it's because i actually think

1856
01:05:50,710 --> 01:05:48,240
that's what

1857
01:05:52,069 --> 01:05:50,720
the data is telling us so when i

1858
01:05:53,589 --> 01:05:52,079
before i ever

1859
01:05:55,670 --> 01:05:53,599
you know had a

1860
01:05:57,670 --> 01:05:55,680
kind of massive interest in the ufo

1861
01:05:59,990 --> 01:05:57,680
phenomenon where i became obsessive

1862
01:06:01,349 --> 01:06:00,000
about it uh you know i had a spiritual

1863
01:06:02,789 --> 01:06:01,359
history

1864
01:06:05,029 --> 01:06:02,799
i had

1865
01:06:07,670 --> 01:06:05,039
an interest in science

1866
01:06:09,349 --> 01:06:07,680
and metaphysics and when i look at

1867
01:06:11,029 --> 01:06:09,359
different fields you know the the

1868
01:06:13,990 --> 01:06:11,039
neuroscience of consciousness what's

1869
01:06:17,029 --> 01:06:14,000
happening in quantum mechanics um to me

1870
01:06:19,109 --> 01:06:17,039
it all points towards

1871
01:06:20,710 --> 01:06:19,119
consciousness being primary and then

1872
01:06:22,870 --> 01:06:20,720
everything else kind of being derivative

1873
01:06:24,870 --> 01:06:22,880
of that which again is kind of turns on

1874
01:06:25,990 --> 01:06:24,880
its head the sort of common mainstream

1875
01:06:27,190 --> 01:06:26,000
view

1876
01:06:28,789 --> 01:06:27,200
but because that's one of my

1877
01:06:30,309 --> 01:06:28,799
presuppositions and again it's not just

1878
01:06:32,710 --> 01:06:30,319
because i like the idea i think there's

1879
01:06:34,230 --> 01:06:32,720
lots of evidence pointing towards that

1880
01:06:35,270 --> 01:06:34,240
and in my own experience when i've been

1881
01:06:37,270 --> 01:06:35,280
able to

1882
01:06:39,109 --> 01:06:37,280
practice shutting down my executive ego

1883
01:06:41,029 --> 01:06:39,119
i do actually

1884
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:41,039
enter into this modality where i sense

1885
01:06:44,630 --> 01:06:42,480
this broader

1886
01:06:46,309 --> 01:06:44,640
connection with everything else to the

1887
01:06:47,430 --> 01:06:46,319
point where my experience of time

1888
01:06:48,950 --> 01:06:47,440
changes

1889
01:06:51,510 --> 01:06:48,960
i in a moment

1890
01:06:53,029 --> 01:06:51,520
forget about the individual ego and i'm

1891
01:06:54,710 --> 01:06:53,039
actually

1892
01:06:56,150 --> 01:06:54,720
you know to use kind of a cliche one

1893
01:06:57,829 --> 01:06:56,160
with the universe i literally have

1894
01:06:59,829 --> 01:06:57,839
experienced that and

1895
01:07:01,829 --> 01:06:59,839
um through a variety of different

1896
01:07:03,029 --> 01:07:01,839
practices and means

1897
01:07:05,190 --> 01:07:03,039
and so

1898
01:07:06,950 --> 01:07:05,200
it just makes sense to me that these

1899
01:07:10,630 --> 01:07:06,960
others

1900
01:07:12,789 --> 01:07:10,640
are part of that consciousness web too

1901
01:07:15,029 --> 01:07:12,799
and not only that but again there's lots

1902
01:07:17,670 --> 01:07:15,039
of data suggesting that that people have

1903
01:07:19,109 --> 01:07:17,680
those experiences with them that

1904
01:07:20,789 --> 01:07:19,119
part of being

1905
01:07:23,190 --> 01:07:20,799
with these others some of them anyway

1906
01:07:25,670 --> 01:07:23,200
again we don't assume it's one kind

1907
01:07:27,270 --> 01:07:25,680
actually changes the way people that

1908
01:07:29,190 --> 01:07:27,280
becomes one of the modalities by which

1909
01:07:31,589 --> 01:07:29,200
people do experience themselves as being

1910
01:07:33,990 --> 01:07:31,599
broader deeper

1911
01:07:35,910 --> 01:07:34,000
than they saw before you know and and

1912
01:07:38,309 --> 01:07:35,920
even to the point where when people are

1913
01:07:40,549 --> 01:07:38,319
sometimes returned after uh quote

1914
01:07:42,630 --> 01:07:40,559
unquote abduction or a contact event

1915
01:07:45,029 --> 01:07:42,640
whatever you want to call it whatever

1916
01:07:46,470 --> 01:07:45,039
connotation you want to apply

1917
01:07:48,710 --> 01:07:46,480
they actually find that they go from a

1918
01:07:49,750 --> 01:07:48,720
much broader sometimes understanding of

1919
01:07:51,430 --> 01:07:49,760
not just

1920
01:07:53,589 --> 01:07:51,440
who the others are but who they

1921
01:07:55,750 --> 01:07:53,599
themselves are right

1922
01:07:57,750 --> 01:07:55,760
and to the point where when they come

1923
01:07:59,670 --> 01:07:57,760
back into their body in their bed they

1924
01:08:01,029 --> 01:07:59,680
actually

1925
01:08:02,950 --> 01:08:01,039
in the same way that we come back from a

1926
01:08:05,029 --> 01:08:02,960
psychedelic trip or a near-death

1927
01:08:06,950 --> 01:08:05,039
experience or an out-of-body experience

1928
01:08:08,470 --> 01:08:06,960
you kind of get crushed back into a

1929
01:08:10,630 --> 01:08:08,480
narrow frame

1930
01:08:12,950 --> 01:08:10,640
where the executive ego comes back

1931
01:08:15,670 --> 01:08:12,960
online and you are this

1932
01:08:17,510 --> 01:08:15,680
individual unit in a space-time

1933
01:08:19,269 --> 01:08:17,520
linear dance

1934
01:08:20,950 --> 01:08:19,279
so that's again what's so interesting is

1935
01:08:23,430 --> 01:08:20,960
that uh

1936
01:08:25,349 --> 01:08:23,440
when we're with these others many times

1937
01:08:27,829 --> 01:08:25,359
we seem to have a different sense of

1938
01:08:30,149 --> 01:08:27,839
self and again sometimes at first that's

1939
01:08:32,309 --> 01:08:30,159
not true sometimes at first

1940
01:08:34,070 --> 01:08:32,319
again speaking of presuppositions

1941
01:08:36,630 --> 01:08:34,080
for people who are very identified with

1942
01:08:38,870 --> 01:08:36,640
their executive ego and their small self

1943
01:08:39,910 --> 01:08:38,880
it can feel even like death that's

1944
01:08:41,510 --> 01:08:39,920
actually the way some people have

1945
01:08:42,950 --> 01:08:41,520
described it because

1946
01:08:44,789 --> 01:08:42,960
if you are

1947
01:08:47,110 --> 01:08:44,799
hugely identified with the executive ego

1948
01:08:48,870 --> 01:08:47,120
in a small sense of self meaning this is

1949
01:08:51,349 --> 01:08:48,880
my story i was born here as raised by

1950
01:08:54,309 --> 01:08:51,359
these people and part of this culture

1951
01:08:55,829 --> 01:08:54,319
if that's your only sense of self then

1952
01:08:57,829 --> 01:08:55,839
when you're exposed to this broader

1953
01:08:59,910 --> 01:08:57,839
reality and they they seem to impose

1954
01:09:01,590 --> 01:08:59,920
themselves and be able to come right

1955
01:09:03,590 --> 01:09:01,600
into your consciousness all your usual

1956
01:09:05,590 --> 01:09:03,600
walls that we have

1957
01:09:07,990 --> 01:09:05,600
protecting your thoughts all that's gone

1958
01:09:10,229 --> 01:09:08,000
right people talk about being so exposed

1959
01:09:12,709 --> 01:09:10,239
before these others some people see that

1960
01:09:14,550 --> 01:09:12,719
as invasive and almost like uh you know

1961
01:09:16,870 --> 01:09:14,560
malicious

1962
01:09:18,470 --> 01:09:16,880
but it's it's may just be their natural

1963
01:09:20,309 --> 01:09:18,480
modality that's kind of even what some

1964
01:09:21,829 --> 01:09:20,319
people again from part of the literature

1965
01:09:24,390 --> 01:09:21,839
have suggested they've been told by

1966
01:09:26,470 --> 01:09:24,400
these others so to me that's fascinating

1967
01:09:27,990 --> 01:09:26,480
that you have this

1968
01:09:29,590 --> 01:09:28,000
parallel between

1969
01:09:31,829 --> 01:09:29,600
near-death experiences psychedelic

1970
01:09:33,189 --> 01:09:31,839
journeys out-of-body experiences and an

1971
01:09:35,189 --> 01:09:33,199
experience with the others and that's

1972
01:09:37,590 --> 01:09:35,199
why the free foundation coined this the

1973
01:09:39,829 --> 01:09:37,600
contact modalities right that somehow

1974
01:09:42,950 --> 01:09:39,839
these are all connected and an

1975
01:09:46,390 --> 01:09:42,960
inevitable uh implication tends to be

1976
01:09:49,189 --> 01:09:46,400
that it changes your very sense of self

1977
01:09:51,669 --> 01:09:49,199
yeah it's an invitation to that and and

1978
01:09:53,990 --> 01:09:51,679
that i think is uh

1979
01:09:56,470 --> 01:09:54,000
really what what this may all be about

1980
01:09:59,750 --> 01:09:56,480
and you alluded to it earlier that that

1981
01:10:00,830 --> 01:09:59,760
the history of interaction with

1982
01:10:02,870 --> 01:10:00,840
with this

1983
01:10:04,790 --> 01:10:02,880
presence you know really is an

1984
01:10:06,149 --> 01:10:04,800
invitation to

1985
01:10:12,070 --> 01:10:06,159
change

1986
01:10:15,110 --> 01:10:12,080
and and that gets to something we've

1987
01:10:17,590 --> 01:10:15,120
talked about on the show and that's uh

1988
01:10:20,070 --> 01:10:17,600
you know change is is part of

1989
01:10:23,189 --> 01:10:20,080
of living you know that it that

1990
01:10:25,590 --> 01:10:23,199
experience is is full of change

1991
01:10:27,990 --> 01:10:25,600
it changes meaningful valuable change in

1992
01:10:30,390 --> 01:10:28,000
its in in and of itself

1993
01:10:31,990 --> 01:10:30,400
uh is almost of uh

1994
01:10:34,149 --> 01:10:32,000
kind of a primal

1995
01:10:35,110 --> 01:10:34,159
uh essential quality

1996
01:10:36,070 --> 01:10:35,120
um

1997
01:10:38,950 --> 01:10:36,080
and

1998
01:10:41,110 --> 01:10:38,960
you know i think that

1999
01:10:42,870 --> 01:10:41,120
you're kind of taking that macroscopic

2000
01:10:44,709 --> 01:10:42,880
view

2001
01:10:46,550 --> 01:10:44,719
that we try to do

2002
01:10:48,550 --> 01:10:46,560
you know coming back to

2003
01:10:52,470 --> 01:10:48,560
experience more broadly

2004
01:10:56,149 --> 01:10:54,470
there there's a value

2005
01:11:00,070 --> 01:10:56,159
to

2006
01:11:02,229 --> 01:11:00,080
uh embracing the conclusions

2007
01:11:04,870 --> 01:11:02,239
that each layer of experience maybe

2008
01:11:07,510 --> 01:11:04,880
presents to to to us

2009
01:11:09,590 --> 01:11:07,520
uh into reality you know so

2010
01:11:11,590 --> 01:11:09,600
so on one layer

2011
01:11:13,430 --> 01:11:11,600
you know the experience of a very

2012
01:11:16,149 --> 01:11:13,440
visceral experience of something being

2013
01:11:18,470 --> 01:11:16,159
very good or very bad

2014
01:11:19,910 --> 01:11:18,480
there's a value at that layer

2015
01:11:21,990 --> 01:11:19,920
there's a value

2016
01:11:23,910 --> 01:11:22,000
to a layer that is above that that says

2017
01:11:25,430 --> 01:11:23,920
well it's uh it was good and bad it was

2018
01:11:27,910 --> 01:11:25,440
a little bit of both

2019
01:11:30,149 --> 01:11:27,920
uh maybe on balance it was more good you

2020
01:11:32,070 --> 01:11:30,159
know there's there's a value above that

2021
01:11:34,550 --> 01:11:32,080
that might say you know

2022
01:11:37,990 --> 01:11:34,560
none of those things matter at all

2023
01:11:40,630 --> 01:11:38,000
uh you know whatever the lower value uh

2024
01:11:43,990 --> 01:11:40,640
attributed to it it's irrelevant you

2025
01:11:46,390 --> 01:11:44,000
know at this layer of experience

2026
01:11:48,950 --> 01:11:46,400
those things are insignificant

2027
01:11:51,750 --> 01:11:48,960
and you know all you can go kind of you

2028
01:11:53,590 --> 01:11:51,760
can think of this as a

2029
01:11:56,070 --> 01:11:53,600
you know both in a reducing sort of

2030
01:11:57,990 --> 01:11:56,080
perspective but in expanding and it's at

2031
01:12:00,550 --> 01:11:58,000
some level of expansion

2032
01:12:01,830 --> 01:12:00,560
experience generally is all that there

2033
01:12:03,990 --> 01:12:01,840
is you know and

2034
01:12:05,350 --> 01:12:04,000
you know sort of experience at its root

2035
01:12:06,790 --> 01:12:05,360
nature

2036
01:12:09,030 --> 01:12:06,800
is valuable

2037
01:12:11,990 --> 01:12:09,040
uh and i don't mean that in a

2038
01:12:13,430 --> 01:12:12,000
good bad dichotomy at all

2039
01:12:16,870 --> 01:12:13,440
it's just that

2040
01:12:19,189 --> 01:12:16,880
the exercise of experiencing

2041
01:12:22,470 --> 01:12:19,199
is what is important

2042
01:12:24,550 --> 01:12:22,480
and presented with the phenomenon we we

2043
01:12:25,350 --> 01:12:24,560
land in that place

2044
01:12:28,390 --> 01:12:25,360
that

2045
01:12:30,070 --> 01:12:28,400
ultimately it is a changing

2046
01:12:32,390 --> 01:12:30,080
of who we are

2047
01:12:34,229 --> 01:12:32,400
of all that there is

2048
01:12:35,110 --> 01:12:34,239
a broadening awareness

2049
01:12:37,350 --> 01:12:35,120
of

2050
01:12:39,350 --> 01:12:37,360
not only our individual journeys but the

2051
01:12:41,750 --> 01:12:39,360
journey of life

2052
01:12:43,669 --> 01:12:41,760
of conscious experience itself

2053
01:12:45,510 --> 01:12:43,679
so it's interesting to me that this

2054
01:12:47,270 --> 01:12:45,520
topic

2055
01:12:49,110 --> 01:12:47,280
this this binary

2056
01:12:52,310 --> 01:12:49,120
you know kind of on-ramp

2057
01:12:54,790 --> 01:12:52,320
is to me at least it's that invitation

2058
01:12:56,470 --> 01:12:54,800
it's that it's that sign that's pointing

2059
01:12:58,229 --> 01:12:56,480
us to go further

2060
01:13:00,390 --> 01:12:58,239
and so you know i

2061
01:13:02,950 --> 01:13:00,400
encourage everyone and myself just to

2062
01:13:04,950 --> 01:13:02,960
you know we have to push forward you

2063
01:13:06,630 --> 01:13:04,960
know we have to keep pushing beyond

2064
01:13:09,030 --> 01:13:06,640
these uh you know sort of quick

2065
01:13:11,110 --> 01:13:09,040
judgments and think more broadly

2066
01:13:13,510 --> 01:13:11,120
and that may mean

2067
01:13:15,830 --> 01:13:13,520
we kind of circle around it too you know

2068
01:13:17,590 --> 01:13:15,840
we may come back and say uh you know

2069
01:13:18,950 --> 01:13:17,600
after a few years uh you know that

2070
01:13:20,950 --> 01:13:18,960
really that bad thing actually was

2071
01:13:22,149 --> 01:13:20,960
really great a few years go by and

2072
01:13:23,510 --> 01:13:22,159
you're like you know what if that never

2073
01:13:24,630 --> 01:13:23,520
happened uh

2074
01:13:26,070 --> 01:13:24,640
this terrible thing wouldn't have

2075
01:13:27,590 --> 01:13:26,080
happened so that that experience was

2076
01:13:30,229 --> 01:13:27,600
terrible you know so

2077
01:13:33,910 --> 01:13:30,239
this is like a it's it is in a way the

2078
01:13:36,310 --> 01:13:33,920
the sort of uh superpower of conscious

2079
01:13:37,350 --> 01:13:36,320
awareness right to be able to take

2080
01:13:40,390 --> 01:13:37,360
something

2081
01:13:43,990 --> 01:13:40,400
an individual experience and examine it

2082
01:13:44,870 --> 01:13:44,000
over and over and transform it it's it

2083
01:13:46,470 --> 01:13:44,880
you know

2084
01:13:48,950 --> 01:13:46,480
the creative

2085
01:13:50,470 --> 01:13:48,960
potentiality that is there

2086
01:13:52,630 --> 01:13:50,480
is uh

2087
01:13:54,390 --> 01:13:52,640
you know i would argue like

2088
01:13:56,390 --> 01:13:54,400
the most important thing you know that

2089
01:13:57,510 --> 01:13:56,400
this transformative ability that we

2090
01:13:59,990 --> 01:13:57,520
possess

2091
01:14:01,830 --> 01:14:00,000
uh you know don't don't necessarily put

2092
01:14:02,870 --> 01:14:01,840
all your hopes and dreams on

2093
01:14:05,189 --> 01:14:02,880
you know

2094
01:14:06,149 --> 01:14:05,199
some new cognitive uh ability you can

2095
01:14:08,149 --> 01:14:06,159
unlock

2096
01:14:10,070 --> 01:14:08,159
quite frankly we already have it you

2097
01:14:11,270 --> 01:14:10,080
know we just have to think about it in a

2098
01:14:14,870 --> 01:14:11,280
certain way

2099
01:14:16,709 --> 01:14:14,880
so i i don't know to what extent you

2100
01:14:17,669 --> 01:14:16,719
you know sort of are confronted with

2101
01:14:21,350 --> 01:14:17,679
this

2102
01:14:23,110 --> 01:14:21,360
uh you know in your examination of

2103
01:14:25,189 --> 01:14:23,120
of that you know kind of easy

2104
01:14:26,950 --> 01:14:25,199
categorization but to me it's it's

2105
01:14:29,270 --> 01:14:26,960
amazing how that

2106
01:14:31,189 --> 01:14:29,280
kind of very simple way of looking at it

2107
01:14:34,229 --> 01:14:31,199
really does open up

2108
01:14:37,830 --> 01:14:34,239
into a much broader uh sort of awareness

2109
01:14:41,270 --> 01:14:40,149
yeah absolutely and um expression i

2110
01:14:44,070 --> 01:14:41,280
would use to describe what you're

2111
01:14:45,430 --> 01:14:44,080
talking about is metacognitive awareness

2112
01:14:46,790 --> 01:14:45,440
you know to not just think about

2113
01:14:49,350 --> 01:14:46,800
something but to be aware of your

2114
01:14:51,430 --> 01:14:49,360
thinking about something and to analyze

2115
01:14:53,270 --> 01:14:51,440
and to parse out the way you're thinking

2116
01:14:54,709 --> 01:14:53,280
about it and

2117
01:14:56,709 --> 01:14:54,719
apparently that's one of the things

2118
01:14:58,149 --> 01:14:56,719
that's unique about us compared to the

2119
01:14:59,189 --> 01:14:58,159
most of the rest of the animal kingdom

2120
01:15:00,870 --> 01:14:59,199
anyway

2121
01:15:03,430 --> 01:15:00,880
there me some creatures you know

2122
01:15:05,990 --> 01:15:03,440
dolphins and octopi who may be aliens

2123
01:15:07,990 --> 01:15:06,000
you never know um you know seem to maybe

2124
01:15:10,310 --> 01:15:08,000
have that capacity but yeah that's a

2125
01:15:11,910 --> 01:15:10,320
remarkable capacity we have and it's

2126
01:15:13,510 --> 01:15:11,920
funny when you

2127
01:15:15,669 --> 01:15:13,520
we've talked you know we've talked about

2128
01:15:17,510 --> 01:15:15,679
religion a fair bit

2129
01:15:19,669 --> 01:15:17,520
i think if for a second if we parse out

2130
01:15:21,350 --> 01:15:19,679
spirituality there's a couple things i

2131
01:15:23,350 --> 01:15:21,360
want to say about that

2132
01:15:25,110 --> 01:15:23,360
one is that when in our culture when

2133
01:15:26,390 --> 01:15:25,120
people sometimes talk about spirituality

2134
01:15:27,669 --> 01:15:26,400
what they really mean is i want

2135
01:15:29,750 --> 01:15:27,679
something that's gonna make me feel

2136
01:15:30,870 --> 01:15:29,760
better in the short term i want

2137
01:15:33,430 --> 01:15:30,880
something that's going to make me

2138
01:15:36,229 --> 01:15:33,440
comfortable you know like a a warm fuzzy

2139
01:15:37,110 --> 01:15:36,239
blanket is the spirituality i want

2140
01:15:38,790 --> 01:15:37,120
when

2141
01:15:40,709 --> 01:15:38,800
from my point of view what i've always

2142
01:15:43,430 --> 01:15:40,719
been more i'm not saying i'm not you

2143
01:15:45,990 --> 01:15:43,440
know suspect and that that doesn't

2144
01:15:49,350 --> 01:15:46,000
sometimes crop up for me too

2145
01:15:51,590 --> 01:15:49,360
but generally i want to grow and

2146
01:15:52,950 --> 01:15:51,600
you know you think about um you know

2147
01:15:54,470 --> 01:15:52,960
when you're exercising you know when

2148
01:15:56,870 --> 01:15:54,480
you're lifting weights to try and build

2149
01:15:58,229 --> 01:15:56,880
muscle you're literally tearing

2150
01:15:59,430 --> 01:15:58,239
previous muscle tissue and then

2151
01:16:01,590 --> 01:15:59,440
rebuilding

2152
01:16:03,350 --> 01:16:01,600
and and as as an analogy here i was

2153
01:16:05,110 --> 01:16:03,360
thinking what if a trainer shows up

2154
01:16:06,790 --> 01:16:05,120
right in the middle of the night

2155
01:16:08,950 --> 01:16:06,800
takes you to the gym and forces you to

2156
01:16:10,070 --> 01:16:08,960
like lift weights all night and then

2157
01:16:11,430 --> 01:16:10,080
someone says

2158
01:16:13,750 --> 01:16:11,440
what happened to you last night well

2159
01:16:15,830 --> 01:16:13,760
some strange being came and like really

2160
01:16:17,669 --> 01:16:15,840
hurt me like i you know i was in so much

2161
01:16:19,830 --> 01:16:17,679
pain and i don't see there's no good in

2162
01:16:22,550 --> 01:16:19,840
it i can't see any good in it right but

2163
01:16:24,070 --> 01:16:22,560
then in the broader perspective you uh

2164
01:16:26,149 --> 01:16:24,080
you know you eventually realize ah

2165
01:16:28,390 --> 01:16:26,159
that's how you actually take care of

2166
01:16:30,390 --> 01:16:28,400
your body and by using it you you know

2167
01:16:33,189 --> 01:16:30,400
strengthen it and that kind of thing so

2168
01:16:35,430 --> 01:16:33,199
that's just one tiny encapsulation of

2169
01:16:37,189 --> 01:16:35,440
how we could interpret an event two

2170
01:16:39,669 --> 01:16:37,199
different ways and i like the way you

2171
01:16:41,110 --> 01:16:39,679
talked about it before too like uh

2172
01:16:43,110 --> 01:16:41,120
every step

2173
01:16:45,750 --> 01:16:43,120
you know out in kind of a spiraling

2174
01:16:47,990 --> 01:16:45,760
fashion around a certain tiny

2175
01:16:50,229 --> 01:16:48,000
event we can see it in good and bad ways

2176
01:16:52,709 --> 01:16:50,239
right and there's even famous like

2177
01:16:53,910 --> 01:16:52,719
buddhist proverbs that do that say that

2178
01:16:56,070 --> 01:16:53,920
someone's in the hospital and they broke

2179
01:16:57,830 --> 01:16:56,080
their leg and said oh i'm so sorry you

2180
01:16:59,510 --> 01:16:57,840
broke your leg that's so bad he's like

2181
01:17:00,870 --> 01:16:59,520
well maybe not because it turns out i

2182
01:17:01,990 --> 01:17:00,880
would have gone home and it turns out my

2183
01:17:03,189 --> 01:17:02,000
house burned down so if i would have

2184
01:17:04,790 --> 01:17:03,199
gone home i would have been dead so

2185
01:17:06,470 --> 01:17:04,800
broken break my legs actually better in

2186
01:17:08,470 --> 01:17:06,480
comparison and you kind of do that

2187
01:17:09,910 --> 01:17:08,480
multiple times and they say well that's

2188
01:17:10,950 --> 01:17:09,920
so great that happened because otherwise

2189
01:17:13,030 --> 01:17:10,960
you had been dead well i don't know

2190
01:17:14,229 --> 01:17:13,040
about that because of this and and you

2191
01:17:16,630 --> 01:17:14,239
practice

2192
01:17:18,310 --> 01:17:16,640
and again this is what uh you know

2193
01:17:20,310 --> 01:17:18,320
you're taught in buddhism is to actually

2194
01:17:22,550 --> 01:17:20,320
practice doing that so you

2195
01:17:24,070 --> 01:17:22,560
begin to develop some flexibility to be

2196
01:17:26,550 --> 01:17:24,080
able to vacillate between different

2197
01:17:29,189 --> 01:17:26,560
modalities and again not be so caught up

2198
01:17:31,189 --> 01:17:29,199
in a small sense of self um

2199
01:17:33,750 --> 01:17:31,199
so yeah i think for me

2200
01:17:36,470 --> 01:17:33,760
spirituality means growth uh and that

2201
01:17:38,310 --> 01:17:36,480
means also maintaining this sense of

2202
01:17:40,070 --> 01:17:38,320
like childlike wonder you know like when

2203
01:17:42,149 --> 01:17:40,080
you're when you're a kid as long as you

2204
01:17:44,630 --> 01:17:42,159
have a uh you know a safe environment

2205
01:17:46,149 --> 01:17:44,640
around you that you're you know within a

2206
01:17:48,070 --> 01:17:46,159
loving environment and you have the

2207
01:17:50,950 --> 01:17:48,080
things the basic things you need then

2208
01:17:54,229 --> 01:17:50,960
your your normal um

2209
01:17:55,750 --> 01:17:54,239
orientation towards reality in life is

2210
01:17:58,470 --> 01:17:55,760
wonder right

2211
01:18:00,229 --> 01:17:58,480
you just want to learn more and

2212
01:18:01,990 --> 01:18:00,239
i remember hearing described one time

2213
01:18:03,830 --> 01:18:02,000
that when a little kid sees a door they

2214
01:18:05,110 --> 01:18:03,840
go wow a door

2215
01:18:07,750 --> 01:18:05,120
because it's like it means that's a

2216
01:18:10,149 --> 01:18:07,760
portal to some other place right

2217
01:18:12,470 --> 01:18:10,159
that's the way i underlyingly again

2218
01:18:14,310 --> 01:18:12,480
partly because i was blessed and having

2219
01:18:15,189 --> 01:18:14,320
a loving environment when i was growing

2220
01:18:17,189 --> 01:18:15,199
up

2221
01:18:18,709 --> 01:18:17,199
that's kind of my

2222
01:18:20,550 --> 01:18:18,719
overarching

2223
01:18:22,149 --> 01:18:20,560
orientation towards this phenomenon that

2224
01:18:24,470 --> 01:18:22,159
doesn't mean i don't

2225
01:18:26,790 --> 01:18:24,480
take care i don't work on grounding

2226
01:18:28,390 --> 01:18:26,800
myself i don't i do practice spiritual

2227
01:18:30,310 --> 01:18:28,400
hygiene i think there's things you have

2228
01:18:32,870 --> 01:18:30,320
to do to make sure that you're

2229
01:18:34,390 --> 01:18:32,880
not making yourself susceptible to

2230
01:18:35,750 --> 01:18:34,400
certain negative entities which i

2231
01:18:37,590 --> 01:18:35,760
absolutely think

2232
01:18:38,870 --> 01:18:37,600
exists though i don't think we have to

2233
01:18:40,390 --> 01:18:38,880
necessarily assume therefore their

2234
01:18:42,630 --> 01:18:40,400
biblical demons

2235
01:18:44,790 --> 01:18:42,640
but negative entities do exist but we

2236
01:18:47,270 --> 01:18:44,800
there are again speaking of practices we

2237
01:18:50,630 --> 01:18:47,280
can use and incorporate

2238
01:18:53,270 --> 01:18:50,640
there are practices you can work on to

2239
01:18:56,709 --> 01:18:53,280
help change what kind of experiences you

2240
01:18:59,510 --> 01:18:56,719
have um so for me

2241
01:19:01,350 --> 01:18:59,520
i'm i'm more led by the wonder part so i

2242
01:19:03,030 --> 01:19:01,360
actually you know even in the future

2243
01:19:04,229 --> 01:19:03,040
here i'm gonna have a chance to do some

2244
01:19:06,310 --> 01:19:04,239
things where i

2245
01:19:08,229 --> 01:19:06,320
uh can can see what happens with the

2246
01:19:09,669 --> 01:19:08,239
phenomenon and i'm looking i'm willing

2247
01:19:11,510 --> 01:19:09,679
to go into it because i'm going to be

2248
01:19:13,750 --> 01:19:11,520
doing my grounding work i'm going to be

2249
01:19:16,390 --> 01:19:13,760
doing practicing spiritual hygiene i'm

2250
01:19:18,470 --> 01:19:16,400
going to focus on the kinds of protocols

2251
01:19:20,550 --> 01:19:18,480
that tend to according to the data

2252
01:19:23,030 --> 01:19:20,560
produce positive results

2253
01:19:25,750 --> 01:19:23,040
and and look to learn right from the

2254
01:19:28,390 --> 01:19:25,760
experience um and that's one of my

2255
01:19:30,070 --> 01:19:28,400
presuppositions that i bring to it um

2256
01:19:31,430 --> 01:19:30,080
and it's it's that way about anything in

2257
01:19:33,750 --> 01:19:31,440
life that uh

2258
01:19:35,590 --> 01:19:33,760
we can either be overwhelmed by

2259
01:19:37,590 --> 01:19:35,600
something new that even when you think

2260
01:19:39,910 --> 01:19:37,600
about that like as an individual

2261
01:19:42,310 --> 01:19:39,920
something new comes up do you go is your

2262
01:19:45,910 --> 01:19:42,320
initial reaction ah nah i just want

2263
01:19:47,750 --> 01:19:45,920
what's safe and familiar you know

2264
01:19:50,390 --> 01:19:47,760
so for me

2265
01:19:53,510 --> 01:19:50,400
my pursuit of the phenomenon is part and

2266
01:19:56,310 --> 01:19:53,520
parcel with mike's my pursuit of

2267
01:19:57,669 --> 01:19:56,320
the spiritual meaning of life of reality

2268
01:19:59,910 --> 01:19:57,679
we talked about this i think in our

2269
01:20:01,510 --> 01:19:59,920
first or second episode you know

2270
01:20:03,750 --> 01:20:01,520
this topic

2271
01:20:04,870 --> 01:20:03,760
inevitably gets to the really really big

2272
01:20:07,270 --> 01:20:04,880
questions

2273
01:20:09,750 --> 01:20:07,280
and speaking of spirituality there there

2274
01:20:11,990 --> 01:20:09,760
are times when people are experiencing

2275
01:20:15,510 --> 01:20:12,000
this phenomenon and they have this

2276
01:20:17,510 --> 01:20:15,520
profound sense of spirituality and and

2277
01:20:19,510 --> 01:20:17,520
maybe we could break that down by saying

2278
01:20:22,149 --> 01:20:19,520
there's this overarching sense of

2279
01:20:24,709 --> 01:20:22,159
profound ultimate meaning that

2280
01:20:26,550 --> 01:20:24,719
everything makes sense it's

2281
01:20:29,110 --> 01:20:26,560
it's valuable

2282
01:20:31,910 --> 01:20:29,120
we are valuable within this this larger

2283
01:20:33,990 --> 01:20:31,920
context and that everything everything

2284
01:20:35,750 --> 01:20:34,000
has is has you know an incredible sense

2285
01:20:37,350 --> 01:20:35,760
of meaning that's i think what people

2286
01:20:38,870 --> 01:20:37,360
mean when they say it's it felt

2287
01:20:41,110 --> 01:20:38,880
spiritual you know it's

2288
01:20:42,470 --> 01:20:41,120
and it's as much visceral as it is

2289
01:20:44,830 --> 01:20:42,480
intellectual right they can't

2290
01:20:47,430 --> 01:20:44,840
necessarily say well because i was told

2291
01:20:50,870 --> 01:20:47,440
abc but just something everything about

2292
01:20:53,350 --> 01:20:50,880
your consciousness is exposed to a

2293
01:20:55,350 --> 01:20:53,360
uh a level of reality where you see

2294
01:20:58,229 --> 01:20:55,360
everything differently and everything in

2295
01:21:00,550 --> 01:20:58,239
an interconnected web um and that it's

2296
01:21:02,709 --> 01:21:00,560
moving in a purposeful direction

2297
01:21:04,470 --> 01:21:02,719
so i've had those experiences when i've

2298
01:21:06,229 --> 01:21:04,480
been able to take my executive ego

2299
01:21:09,110 --> 01:21:06,239
offline sometimes by accident and

2300
01:21:10,709 --> 01:21:09,120
sometimes through practice meditation

2301
01:21:11,990 --> 01:21:10,719
and whatnot

2302
01:21:14,310 --> 01:21:12,000
and

2303
01:21:16,870 --> 01:21:14,320
because there's so much overlap with the

2304
01:21:20,070 --> 01:21:16,880
ufo phenomenon and that experience

2305
01:21:23,189 --> 01:21:20,080
that's the way i'm going into again

2306
01:21:24,709 --> 01:21:23,199
practice safety use spiritual hygiene

2307
01:21:26,709 --> 01:21:24,719
use common sense just like if you're

2308
01:21:28,950 --> 01:21:26,719
gonna go into the jungle right if you're

2309
01:21:31,350 --> 01:21:28,960
going on an expedition into the amazon

2310
01:21:34,550 --> 01:21:31,360
you don't just like you know put on your

2311
01:21:36,310 --> 01:21:34,560
khakis and sandals and go right you you

2312
01:21:38,709 --> 01:21:36,320
pack the right

2313
01:21:41,189 --> 01:21:38,719
tools and materials to protect yourself

2314
01:21:43,030 --> 01:21:41,199
you bring a guide you you know have

2315
01:21:44,229 --> 01:21:43,040
first aid kit whatever you know in other

2316
01:21:46,310 --> 01:21:44,239
words

2317
01:21:49,350 --> 01:21:46,320
don't avoid the adventure

2318
01:21:51,270 --> 01:21:49,360
be prepared but also don't skip out on

2319
01:21:52,870 --> 01:21:51,280
life because you're just gonna stick

2320
01:21:56,950 --> 01:21:52,880
with what's comfortable that's that's my

2321
01:21:59,110 --> 01:21:56,960
uh orientation anyway what do you think

2322
01:22:01,430 --> 01:21:59,120
i think yeah absolutely and look for the

2323
01:22:03,910 --> 01:22:01,440
helpers you know so there will be we can

2324
01:22:06,229 --> 01:22:03,920
talk about preparedness and i think

2325
01:22:07,669 --> 01:22:06,239
that's really important uh do the things

2326
01:22:11,110 --> 01:22:07,679
that you can do

2327
01:22:13,030 --> 01:22:11,120
to prepare yourself for those new novel

2328
01:22:14,550 --> 01:22:13,040
experiences

2329
01:22:16,629 --> 01:22:14,560
knowing that

2330
01:22:18,470 --> 01:22:16,639
there very well could be an experience

2331
01:22:19,830 --> 01:22:18,480
that you'll have that you were totally

2332
01:22:22,310 --> 01:22:19,840
unprepared for

2333
01:22:24,149 --> 01:22:22,320
that will completely rock you

2334
01:22:25,990 --> 01:22:24,159
to the foundation

2335
01:22:28,790 --> 01:22:26,000
in that moment

2336
01:22:31,270 --> 01:22:28,800
though i look for

2337
01:22:34,310 --> 01:22:31,280
help you know so i i don't sort of want

2338
01:22:35,590 --> 01:22:34,320
to say well okay that and i did that and

2339
01:22:36,550 --> 01:22:35,600
i'm done i'm never going to do that

2340
01:22:38,790 --> 01:22:36,560
again

2341
01:22:40,229 --> 01:22:38,800
i would look i would kind of put some

2342
01:22:42,470 --> 01:22:40,239
distance there and say okay wait that

2343
01:22:44,310 --> 01:22:42,480
you know that wasn't great but

2344
01:22:45,590 --> 01:22:44,320
who do i know who's had something like

2345
01:22:47,669 --> 01:22:45,600
that happen

2346
01:22:50,149 --> 01:22:47,679
have they navigated that have they had

2347
01:22:52,470 --> 01:22:50,159
it you know more often than one time and

2348
01:22:55,590 --> 01:22:52,480
what advice do they give and you know so

2349
01:22:57,910 --> 01:22:55,600
engage with others who could help you

2350
01:23:01,430 --> 01:22:57,920
navigate that experience and that you

2351
01:23:04,229 --> 01:23:01,440
talked about this sense of wonder

2352
01:23:05,430 --> 01:23:04,239
i had a a sort of colleague in seminary

2353
01:23:07,990 --> 01:23:05,440
who

2354
01:23:09,750 --> 01:23:08,000
had an infant at the time and you know

2355
01:23:12,149 --> 01:23:09,760
the way that he he put this to me at

2356
01:23:14,070 --> 01:23:12,159
least at that moment was so powerful he

2357
01:23:15,990 --> 01:23:14,080
said he took her outside

2358
01:23:17,030 --> 01:23:16,000
and it was the springtime much like it

2359
01:23:19,030 --> 01:23:17,040
is now

2360
01:23:21,350 --> 01:23:19,040
and there was a tree

2361
01:23:22,709 --> 01:23:21,360
that was blooming in his front yard with

2362
01:23:23,830 --> 01:23:22,719
these beautiful

2363
01:23:28,310 --> 01:23:23,840
flowers

2364
01:23:30,390 --> 01:23:28,320
just you know as if anyone who has

2365
01:23:32,470 --> 01:23:30,400
children will know that you know

2366
01:23:34,950 --> 01:23:32,480
they have these amazing expressive faces

2367
01:23:37,990 --> 01:23:34,960
so she lit up just and seeing this

2368
01:23:41,510 --> 01:23:38,000
beautiful flower and he said to her you

2369
01:23:43,030 --> 01:23:41,520
know the world of that flower was born

2370
01:23:46,629 --> 01:23:43,040
in that moment

2371
01:23:49,910 --> 01:23:46,639
you know it it came it it arose

2372
01:23:50,950 --> 01:23:49,920
in existence in that moment for her

2373
01:23:53,910 --> 01:23:50,960
so

2374
01:23:56,950 --> 01:23:53,920
this is exp if we if we think about it

2375
01:24:00,390 --> 01:23:56,960
our every experience can be like that

2376
01:24:03,510 --> 01:24:00,400
you know that that we are constantly

2377
01:24:05,590 --> 01:24:03,520
in the presence of of new

2378
01:24:08,550 --> 01:24:05,600
powerful moments

2379
01:24:12,229 --> 01:24:08,560
that are born to us that and that invite

2380
01:24:14,470 --> 01:24:12,239
us into a deeper relationship with them

2381
01:24:15,910 --> 01:24:14,480
um some of those things you know if it

2382
01:24:17,110 --> 01:24:15,920
were a certain kind of tree if you were

2383
01:24:18,950 --> 01:24:17,120
to touch it

2384
01:24:21,030 --> 01:24:18,960
would sting you it would prick you and

2385
01:24:22,790 --> 01:24:21,040
you would bleed you know does that make

2386
01:24:23,750 --> 01:24:22,800
the tree bad

2387
01:24:25,990 --> 01:24:23,760
no

2388
01:24:27,990 --> 01:24:26,000
uh but it does mean that

2389
01:24:30,229 --> 01:24:28,000
maybe next time i need to sort of make

2390
01:24:31,830 --> 01:24:30,239
sure i've got someone who knows plants

2391
01:24:33,990 --> 01:24:31,840
and says hey don't

2392
01:24:36,550 --> 01:24:34,000
don't go touching that one or don't put

2393
01:24:38,470 --> 01:24:36,560
that one in your mouth or whatever it is

2394
01:24:41,510 --> 01:24:38,480
it's not it's not bad it's just you need

2395
01:24:43,189 --> 01:24:41,520
to be careful around it so you know the

2396
01:24:44,550 --> 01:24:43,199
these are different ways in which we

2397
01:24:46,149 --> 01:24:44,560
need to be thinking about our

2398
01:24:48,229 --> 01:24:46,159
interactions with

2399
01:24:50,229 --> 01:24:48,239
with whatever this is

2400
01:24:51,990 --> 01:24:50,239
uh and also take care of yourself you

2401
01:24:53,590 --> 01:24:52,000
know like so there are

2402
01:24:55,750 --> 01:24:53,600
you know there are some moments where

2403
01:24:56,709 --> 01:24:55,760
wherever you are in your own journey

2404
01:24:58,629 --> 01:24:56,719
uh

2405
01:25:01,830 --> 01:24:58,639
you know it may be the best decision to

2406
01:25:04,470 --> 01:25:01,840
say no it may be okay and absolutely

2407
01:25:07,189 --> 01:25:04,480
right to say i'm not going to try this

2408
01:25:09,830 --> 01:25:07,199
i'm not going to pursue this right now

2409
01:25:11,830 --> 01:25:09,840
uh or maybe even ever you know i think

2410
01:25:13,830 --> 01:25:11,840
honor that

2411
01:25:16,550 --> 01:25:13,840
perspective you know that that takes

2412
01:25:18,709 --> 01:25:16,560
some self-awareness

2413
01:25:20,950 --> 01:25:18,719
but like you said it is good as as well

2414
01:25:23,510 --> 01:25:20,960
to to try to find moments where we can

2415
01:25:25,910 --> 01:25:23,520
be a little bit uncomfortable because it

2416
01:25:28,550 --> 01:25:25,920
is through those moments that growth

2417
01:25:30,790 --> 01:25:28,560
opportunities present themselves

2418
01:25:32,790 --> 01:25:30,800
so this is a challenge i mean if all of

2419
01:25:35,990 --> 01:25:32,800
this stuff sounds very spiritual it's

2420
01:25:39,110 --> 01:25:36,000
because quite frankly it is but but we

2421
01:25:40,709 --> 01:25:39,120
as human beings you know we aren't just

2422
01:25:43,030 --> 01:25:40,719
moving through the world

2423
01:25:43,910 --> 01:25:43,040
merely you know eating drinking sleeping

2424
01:25:45,590 --> 01:25:43,920
you know

2425
01:25:47,830 --> 01:25:45,600
procreating that's just that we're doing

2426
01:25:50,229 --> 01:25:47,840
so much more where we're

2427
01:25:52,870 --> 01:25:50,239
we're placing meaning

2428
01:25:57,350 --> 01:25:52,880
layers and layers and layers of meaning

2429
01:26:00,149 --> 01:25:57,360
onto both the profound and the mundane

2430
01:26:03,030 --> 01:26:00,159
and that is a gift

2431
01:26:05,669 --> 01:26:03,040
uh that we should not take lightly

2432
01:26:08,070 --> 01:26:05,679
and i hope that you know that that

2433
01:26:10,310 --> 01:26:08,080
others who are on this journey with us

2434
01:26:13,030 --> 01:26:10,320
or you know kind of echoing the

2435
01:26:14,870 --> 01:26:13,040
importance of that

2436
01:26:17,910 --> 01:26:14,880
and and looking for ways to sort of

2437
01:26:19,990 --> 01:26:17,920
magnify it and encourage it in others

2438
01:26:21,750 --> 01:26:20,000
who who may be just coming to this topic

2439
01:26:23,910 --> 01:26:21,760
for the first time

2440
01:26:26,229 --> 01:26:23,920
yeah absolutely and when i think about

2441
01:26:27,750 --> 01:26:26,239
the the analogy you gave there of a of a

2442
01:26:28,950 --> 01:26:27,760
little kid who

2443
01:26:31,350 --> 01:26:28,960
has the wonderment of seeing a

2444
01:26:33,350 --> 01:26:31,360
blossoming tree or you sometimes see an

2445
01:26:34,870 --> 01:26:33,360
infant who like tastes chocolate for the

2446
01:26:36,950 --> 01:26:34,880
first time right and they're like faced

2447
01:26:38,310 --> 01:26:36,960
lights up i need more of that

2448
01:26:40,470 --> 01:26:38,320
um

2449
01:26:41,830 --> 01:26:40,480
and yet what happens is

2450
01:26:43,669 --> 01:26:41,840
partly because sometimes life is

2451
01:26:45,750 --> 01:26:43,679
difficult right

2452
01:26:47,030 --> 01:26:45,760
we live in a kind of a rat race kind of

2453
01:26:48,550 --> 01:26:47,040
culture at this stage of our

2454
01:26:49,750 --> 01:26:48,560
civilization

2455
01:26:52,229 --> 01:26:49,760
and so

2456
01:26:53,990 --> 01:26:52,239
we we often lose that sense of wonder

2457
01:26:55,830 --> 01:26:54,000
that that sense of waking up and going

2458
01:26:57,510 --> 01:26:55,840
what new things can i discover today a

2459
01:26:59,350 --> 01:26:57,520
lot of people it's just how can i

2460
01:27:02,229 --> 01:26:59,360
survive today how can i pay the bills

2461
01:27:04,390 --> 01:27:02,239
and uh we're not trying to you know

2462
01:27:07,830 --> 01:27:04,400
minimize that or dismiss that those real

2463
01:27:09,990 --> 01:27:07,840
concerns that many people have

2464
01:27:11,430 --> 01:27:10,000
because i have a love for people i i

2465
01:27:12,790 --> 01:27:11,440
want people to be

2466
01:27:14,149 --> 01:27:12,800
able to experience wonder in their

2467
01:27:14,950 --> 01:27:14,159
everyday life that's what i'm trying to

2468
01:27:17,990 --> 01:27:14,960
say

2469
01:27:20,470 --> 01:27:18,000
and um

2470
01:27:21,910 --> 01:27:20,480
yeah i think that

2471
01:27:23,510 --> 01:27:21,920
for me it's all connected and part of

2472
01:27:25,189 --> 01:27:23,520
that means that

2473
01:27:26,709 --> 01:27:25,199
in our spiritual pursuit of what is the

2474
01:27:28,629 --> 01:27:26,719
ultimate meaning why are we here you

2475
01:27:31,669 --> 01:27:28,639
know where is it all going i think the

2476
01:27:33,430 --> 01:27:31,679
ufo phenomenon fits within that question

2477
01:27:34,790 --> 01:27:33,440
and that's my kind of perspective and

2478
01:27:36,310 --> 01:27:34,800
and the same way that you use the

2479
01:27:37,910 --> 01:27:36,320
analogy of

2480
01:27:39,030 --> 01:27:37,920
uh you know a tree that might prick you

2481
01:27:40,950 --> 01:27:39,040
or you know

2482
01:27:42,149 --> 01:27:40,960
another example is you know poison ivy

2483
01:27:43,990 --> 01:27:42,159
right it looks

2484
01:27:45,590 --> 01:27:44,000
very much like any other kind of bush

2485
01:27:47,030 --> 01:27:45,600
and no relief and you brush up against

2486
01:27:48,229 --> 01:27:47,040
that you're going to be in pain for a

2487
01:27:49,750 --> 01:27:48,239
week right

2488
01:27:51,030 --> 01:27:49,760
um

2489
01:27:53,350 --> 01:27:51,040
and this sort of brings to mind the

2490
01:27:55,910 --> 01:27:53,360
whole analysis that people do of you

2491
01:27:56,709 --> 01:27:55,920
know is the ufo phenomenon a threat

2492
01:27:58,950 --> 01:27:56,719
right

2493
01:28:01,030 --> 01:27:58,960
and i prefer the term hazard because

2494
01:28:02,950 --> 01:28:01,040
sometimes there are

2495
01:28:04,950 --> 01:28:02,960
just by implication there are aspects of

2496
01:28:06,950 --> 01:28:04,960
it that can be hazardous but

2497
01:28:09,270 --> 01:28:06,960
even though threat doesn't imply

2498
01:28:11,030 --> 01:28:09,280
intentionality people often assume it

2499
01:28:12,629 --> 01:28:11,040
does and i think then

2500
01:28:14,790 --> 01:28:12,639
it plays into our whole hollywood

2501
01:28:16,390 --> 01:28:14,800
hollywood notion of invading aliens and

2502
01:28:17,430 --> 01:28:16,400
you know attacking us

2503
01:28:18,870 --> 01:28:17,440
um

2504
01:28:20,470 --> 01:28:18,880
you know when you're the same way that

2505
01:28:22,550 --> 01:28:20,480
you when you go into the forest you want

2506
01:28:23,910 --> 01:28:22,560
to know what poison ivy looks like so

2507
01:28:26,550 --> 01:28:23,920
you don't brush up against it in the

2508
01:28:29,350 --> 01:28:26,560
same way if you see a you know glowing

2509
01:28:31,270 --> 01:28:29,360
ufo craft landing on your front lawn

2510
01:28:32,470 --> 01:28:31,280
knowing the history with radiation burns

2511
01:28:34,149 --> 01:28:32,480
and whatnot

2512
01:28:35,430 --> 01:28:34,159
probably not a good idea to run up to it

2513
01:28:38,629 --> 01:28:35,440
any more than it's a good idea to run up

2514
01:28:39,990 --> 01:28:38,639
to poison ivy so again we we

2515
01:28:42,709 --> 01:28:40,000
we're asking for a bit of both here you

2516
01:28:44,470 --> 01:28:42,719
know practice common sense be aware of

2517
01:28:46,629 --> 01:28:44,480
what issues have arisen for different

2518
01:28:49,910 --> 01:28:46,639
people in the past with experiences

2519
01:28:52,310 --> 01:28:49,920
but you know also don't defeat or crush

2520
01:28:55,350 --> 01:28:52,320
that sense of wonder we're all you know

2521
01:28:56,790 --> 01:28:55,360
children internally and and i think we

2522
01:28:58,709 --> 01:28:56,800
uh

2523
01:29:01,270 --> 01:28:58,719
maintaining that sense of wonder is so

2524
01:29:04,070 --> 01:29:01,280
important for reality um and yeah i

2525
01:29:05,830 --> 01:29:04,080
think we're just encouraging people to

2526
01:29:08,149 --> 01:29:05,840
to keep both those things in mind and

2527
01:29:10,390 --> 01:29:08,159
again when it comes to all these for me

2528
01:29:11,510 --> 01:29:10,400
personally it's it's exciting to be able

2529
01:29:13,030 --> 01:29:11,520
to

2530
01:29:15,189 --> 01:29:13,040
and maybe this is a bit weird about me

2531
01:29:17,830 --> 01:29:15,199
but to step back and be able to

2532
01:29:20,229 --> 01:29:17,840
parse out all the factors that play into

2533
01:29:23,430 --> 01:29:20,239
my experience of something you know my

2534
01:29:25,669 --> 01:29:23,440
background my presuppositions um

2535
01:29:28,149 --> 01:29:25,679
you know my history all of it as well as

2536
01:29:30,229 --> 01:29:28,159
the experience itself and

2537
01:29:31,590 --> 01:29:30,239
it teaches you about yourself so this

2538
01:29:33,990 --> 01:29:31,600
phenomenon the experience of this

2539
01:29:35,270 --> 01:29:34,000
phenomenon can do as much for helping us

2540
01:29:37,910 --> 01:29:35,280
to learn more about ourselves and

2541
01:29:40,950 --> 01:29:37,920
therefore grow as as we can learn about

2542
01:29:45,189 --> 01:29:43,030
so well said you know and we need to

2543
01:29:47,110 --> 01:29:45,199
bring ourselves our whole selves

2544
01:29:49,590 --> 01:29:47,120
uh to this and and

2545
01:29:51,750 --> 01:29:49,600
you know we do talk about community

2546
01:29:53,750 --> 01:29:51,760
uh quite a bit

2547
01:29:56,310 --> 01:29:53,760
you and i both privately and and

2548
01:29:58,550 --> 01:29:56,320
certainly in our conversations with

2549
01:29:59,830 --> 01:29:58,560
the larger ufo community

2550
01:30:00,709 --> 01:29:59,840
you know if that's something that we

2551
01:30:02,870 --> 01:30:00,719
really

2552
01:30:04,229 --> 01:30:02,880
value and i hear a lot of people say

2553
01:30:06,470 --> 01:30:04,239
that they do

2554
01:30:09,110 --> 01:30:06,480
you know we need to be able to meet

2555
01:30:11,030 --> 01:30:09,120
people where they are

2556
01:30:12,709 --> 01:30:11,040
bring ourselves our whole selves to

2557
01:30:14,470 --> 01:30:12,719
those interactions

2558
01:30:16,790 --> 01:30:14,480
uh to be open

2559
01:30:19,669 --> 01:30:16,800
to different perspectives

2560
01:30:20,550 --> 01:30:19,679
uh not to take everything at face value

2561
01:30:22,149 --> 01:30:20,560
but

2562
01:30:24,550 --> 01:30:22,159
to be a listener

2563
01:30:25,830 --> 01:30:24,560
to be a helper

2564
01:30:28,310 --> 01:30:25,840
because i

2565
01:30:30,629 --> 01:30:28,320
firmly believe that

2566
01:30:33,189 --> 01:30:30,639
we're only going to get a better

2567
01:30:34,629 --> 01:30:33,199
understanding of this

2568
01:30:37,030 --> 01:30:34,639
through

2569
01:30:38,149 --> 01:30:37,040
the sharing of our own interactions

2570
01:30:39,830 --> 01:30:38,159
our

2571
01:30:41,830 --> 01:30:39,840
understandings

2572
01:30:43,590 --> 01:30:41,840
our theories

2573
01:30:45,750 --> 01:30:43,600
that we need to be able to be

2574
01:30:47,669 --> 01:30:45,760
comfortable

2575
01:30:49,430 --> 01:30:47,679
to be in community with each other and

2576
01:30:51,669 --> 01:30:49,440
push each other

2577
01:30:53,350 --> 01:30:51,679
to trying to find out what this all

2578
01:30:55,189 --> 01:30:53,360
means

2579
01:30:57,270 --> 01:30:55,199
and be challenged you know so there will

2580
01:30:59,189 --> 01:30:57,280
be moments where i would hope all of us

2581
01:31:00,870 --> 01:30:59,199
are going to be confronted

2582
01:31:03,910 --> 01:31:00,880
with something that challenges our

2583
01:31:04,870 --> 01:31:03,920
presuppositions and our easy conclusions

2584
01:31:06,790 --> 01:31:04,880
and

2585
01:31:08,950 --> 01:31:06,800
hopefully

2586
01:31:10,709 --> 01:31:08,960
we have the tools and the wherewithal

2587
01:31:11,669 --> 01:31:10,719
and the presence of mind

2588
01:31:20,070 --> 01:31:11,679
to

2589
01:31:22,470 --> 01:31:20,080
grow from that interaction

2590
01:31:24,470 --> 01:31:22,480
you know that to me is a

2591
01:31:25,910 --> 01:31:24,480
is a wonderful gift it can feel like an

2592
01:31:29,030 --> 01:31:25,920
assault

2593
01:31:31,750 --> 01:31:29,040
but it actually is is a real opportunity

2594
01:31:34,870 --> 01:31:31,760
for a change and i think that that's

2595
01:31:35,750 --> 01:31:34,880
you know of ultimate value

2596
01:31:38,390 --> 01:31:35,760
so

2597
01:31:40,149 --> 01:31:38,400
uh at that we'll uh we'll conclude

2598
01:31:42,470 --> 01:31:40,159
episode eight

2599
01:31:44,870 --> 01:31:42,480
of liminal frames it's great to have all

2600
01:31:46,870 --> 01:31:44,880
of you listening along with us

2601
01:31:48,310 --> 01:31:46,880
we do very much enjoy

2602
01:31:49,590 --> 01:31:48,320
interacting with folks that leave

2603
01:31:50,950 --> 01:31:49,600
comments

2604
01:31:52,790 --> 01:31:50,960
and

2605
01:31:55,430 --> 01:31:52,800
any suggestions that you might have for

2606
01:31:57,189 --> 01:31:55,440
future topics we're all ears for those

2607
01:31:59,350 --> 01:31:57,199
as well

2608
01:32:01,350 --> 01:31:59,360
so at the close of the show may the

2609
01:32:03,830 --> 01:32:01,360
quality of our questions

2610
01:32:06,950 --> 01:32:03,840
shaped by a desire for understanding

2611
01:32:09,350 --> 01:32:06,960
enhance our journey of discovery

2612
01:32:11,030 --> 01:32:09,360
and may our travels broaden the sphere

2613
01:32:14,390 --> 01:32:11,040
of our consciousness

2614
01:32:16,149 --> 01:32:14,400
reminding us that new discoveries beget

2615
01:32:17,590 --> 01:32:16,159
new horizons

2616
01:32:19,430 --> 01:32:17,600
as always

2617
01:32:21,270 --> 01:32:19,440
adventure awaits

2618
01:32:25,420 --> 01:32:21,280
we'll see you next time on liminal